22
2011
Justin Turner “Un-Vail-ed”
An article by 
It seems like a lot of people have sent the Justin Turner bandwagon into overdrive. From #JustinTurnerFacts on Twitter (tip of the blue Mets cap to The Daily Stache for creating what has become a trending topic on Twitter) to this guy who’s written too many blogs on him recently, Justin Turner seems to be on everyone’s mind. Even a certain renowned writer who has an equal amount of “faith” and “fear” in his team has weighed in on Turner’s recent accomplishments.
Needless to say, I noticed a connection between Justin Turner and Rusty Staub that has nothing to do with their hair color. Unfortunately, it’s not one most Mets fans would want to make.
Let’s hop into the DeLorean and set the time coordinates to 1975. At the time, the Mets were in a transitional phase. Yogi Berra was fired in August, replaced by Roy McMillan. 1969 World Series hero Cleon Jones was released outright. However, the Mets did produce their highest team batting average to date (.256), saw Dave Kingman belt a franchise-record 36 home runs and watched Rusty Staub become the first player to drive in 100 runs in a single season.
That team also produced a young outfielder named Mike Vail.
Mike Vail was a hitting machine at AAA-Tidewater in 1975, hitting .342 in 115 games. He was also a clutch hitter, driving in 79 runs despite hitting only seven home runs for the Tides. On August 18, he made his major league debut as a pinch-hitter. He singled in his first at-bat. Two days later, he made his first start and went 0-for-5. He wasn’t held hitless again until September 16, when ironically, he did not collect a hit in an 18-inning victory over the St. Louis Cardinals, going 0-for-7 in the extra-inning affair.
Vail’s 23-game hitting streak set the franchise record, unsurpassed until 1984 when Hubie Brooks hit in 24 consecutive games. After hitting .302 in 38 games in 1975, Vail made Rusty Staub expendable in the minds of the front office, who traded Le Grand Orange to the Detroit Tigers for the rotund and past-his-prime Mickey Lolich.
The Mets did well in 1976, finishing with the second-most wins in franchise history at the time (86), but that proved to be the final respectable season for the team until 1984. Rusty Staub went on to average 106 RBI per season for the Tigers from 1976-1978 (no Met drove in as many as 106 runs in a season until Darryl Strawberry collected 108 RBI in 1990). Mike Vail went kaplooie after being anointed as the “player of the future” following the 1975 season.
A basketball injury sustained during the off-season kept Vail on the disabled list for most of the 1976 season. Upon his return, Vail struggled, hitting only .217, scoring eight runs and driving in nine in 53 games. He performed slightly better in 1977, but still only produced a .262 batting average with eight home runs and 35 RBI in 108 games.
The “player of the future” helped send the Mets back to their losing past. After being an excellent contact hitter in the minors, Vail struck out 114 times in 584 career at-bats for the Mets. He attempted eight stolen bases as a Met and was thrown out all eight times. Vail also made Jeff Francoeur look like a walking machine. From 1975-1977, Vail drew only 34 bases on balls, never walking more than 19 times in a single season for the Mets. This continued throughout his major league career, as Vail walked a mere 81 times in 10 big league seasons.
Now let’s get back into the DeLorean, fire up the flux capacitor (anyone have a spare piece of plutonium lying around?) and return to 2011. Justin Turner just set the Mets’ rookie record by driving in at least one run in his seventh consecutive game. Prior to his streak, Turner had only driven in six runs in his major league career. But like Vail, Turner was also an outstanding contact hitter in the minor leagues, hitting .309 and striking out only 279 times in 2,202 plate appearances.
Justin Turner is also playing third base, filling in admirably for the injured David Wright, who drove in over 100 runs last season. With just about every Met having the “untradeable” tag removed from them, could it be that history is about to repeat itself?
Let’s hope not. Justin Turner is on quite a bit of a roll, but he will (probably) never be David Wright, even when the longtime third baseman reverts to his David K. Wright persona. At best, Turner will platoon with Daniel Murphy at second base until Terry Collins decides that one of them has won the job outright.
Justin Turner is a nice player whose 15 minutes of fame have stretched into a second week. He’s not David Wright just like Mike Vail was not Rusty Staub. Let’s enjoy his hot streak while it lasts, but let’s not make the mistake the front office made in 1975 by anointing him “the player of the future”. For now, Justin Turner is a player of the present. We’ll let the future take care of itself.
About the Author: Ed Leyro
Ed Leyro was hatched in the Bronx, but spent most of his youth in Queens at Shea Stadium. Apparently, all that time spent at Mets games paid off as Ed met his wife (The Coop) for the first time at Citi Field during its inaugural season. Guess the 2009 season was good for something after all. In addition to his work at Mets Merized Online, Ed also owns, operates and is head janitor at Studious Metsimus, where he shares blogging duties with Joey Beartran. For those not in the know, Joey is a teddy bear dressed in a Mets hoodie. Clearly, Studious Metsimus is not your typical Mets blog.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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As always, well said! Let’s all enjoy the present and restrain from being too quick anoint a proverbial savior.
Well said. Great minds apparently do think alike, and at roughly the same time of day, as well.
Nice job Ed. Fans tend to get attached too early to fast starts by rookies, but sometimes GM’s can get fall under their allure as well and make very bad and short-sighted moves.
“For now, Justin Turner is a player of the present. We’ll let the future take care of itself.”
Well said.
Wait, wait, wait….who said anything about Turner being a long term 3rd baseman or that he’ll be like David Wright? Who is planting these seeds in your heads? From reading this article on Vail being a contact hitter to strikeout machine, wouldn’t that describe David Wright being Mike Vail more than Justin Turner? Just sayin’. I like what I see thus far from Turner, but some of you are getting WAY ahead of yourselves. I agree with you Ed…for now, Justin Turner is a player of the present. We’ll let the future take care of itself.
Same, baseball “geniuses” were annointing Pridie two weeeks earlier. The lack of knowledge of the game by posters here is incredible. Treat baseball like a football seasonas ou will burned over and over and over. PS: The same gang loved Hairston in March!
Totally agree…
Now the question is can we lend the same patience when determining our Minor League system is a shambles as well?
Everybody knows Wright it getting his job back when he returns. I admit i think this team is better off without him but that’s just me.
What Ed Leyro is doing here is taking a shot at Justin Turner in comparing him to Mike Vail.
First of all how do we know what Justin Turner is gonna be? Return to being a role player, or a platoon player. or a starter. We don’t know yet but it sure is good to FINALLY be having timely hitting coming from the 3B position. Something we haven’t seen in years at 3B.
Ed Leyro simply took a shot at Justin Turner because he’s upstaging his boy David Wright right now. It was also funny to see Ed Leyro take shots at Jose Reyes inability to get big hits in big spots on Twitter and while it’s true Ed Leyro NEVER takes shots at David Wright’s inability to hit in big spots.
Leyro NEVER, EVER mentions that and he’s written plenty of love posts about David Wright but he takes a shot at Reyes and that was simply wrong and I called him out about it on Twitter.
So now he takes a shot at Justin Turner because he’s currently upstaging Wright. Unbelievable.
And Everyone knows Murphy will get his 2B job back once Ike gets back too!
So the book hasn’t closed on Turner until you have to decide what to do with him.
But his value should not just be about how much he can contribute on OUR team alone.
If he plays well or better than some other MLB 3B that is currently out there then he HAS a value!
We don’t have an OFer who can take Carlos Beltran’s job but that doesn’t mean we don’t have one who can or that all our OFs are worthless!
And thats why many people trying to downplay Turner’s success believe.
Turner is doing well, will it last? Doesn’t matter they don’t know we don’t know but if they wish to keep complaining about the state of the farm they have to DOWNPLAY the success of anyone who comes from it….
Ike, Niese, Pridie, Turner, Thole, Soon they will downplay Harvey and Holt and maybe Havens…
Just as they will remind us that APPEARANCES can be MISLEADING! They should apply that to more things than just Justin Turner’s recent carrying of our Offense!
And maybe you should use it on David Wright as well because he has ALWAYS been cold and then superhot in warner weather, and despite all that cold the numbers at the end of the year are All Star numbers!
He is what he is…
Justin Turner WILL be what he is…
Mike Vail was what HE was…UNTIL he got hurt and lost it!
Which happenes to be a solid but not great player who hit .279 for his career!
Jimmy Rollins by comparison has a .272 Avg If rollins played the OF he would be considered an average player too but a good hitting SS is much harder to find!
Vail .279BA .313 OBP .400 SLG
Rollins .272BA .329OBP .433SLG
Murohy shouldn’t get his second base job back. Why do you think everyone knows that? Did you read something? If it was up to me, Turner plays every day and hits second until he rides this streak out. Murphy can spend that time figuring out a painless way to get splinters out of his bum. When Turner comes back down to earth, platoon tham like they have been. But Turner’s proved himself to be a major leaguer.
They can both play there, and 3B and 1B when needed, until we get the RIGHT guy for 2B. Neither is a perfect fit for 2B but together you can get something passable.
OR you can trade one of those PROSPECTS we have at 2B for someone who can play the 2B position full time can’t you?
All it would take is giving them something else in the deal or taking on money they no longer want to spend on a BETTER 2B!
Dicey. Depends on the deal. Murphy’s not going to return a true 2B man. Turner either. Why would anyone trade a useful 2B for either of them and something else? I don’t know. We really could have an in house solution in Havens/Tejada/Valdespin and I like Murph and Turners bats and versatility. I’d play one off the other with Tejada as the hedge for the rest of 2011 and hope one of Tejada/Havens/Valdespin takes a big step forward.
I would certainly look for any chance to upgrade via plan B, non-tender, trade, waiver or anything other than type A but I would still go Turner/Murph next year so as not to disturb the silent rebuild.
You keep looking at them as SINGLE DEALS.
But getting someone good is never a straight up one on one proposition.
But if they are going to LOSE a 2B to send to us they ARE going to want someone to take his place in addition to something else we may have!
So because Turner on an island and Murphy on his own could not get us a good player by themselves you say they are worthless and can not be traded!
But they can and easily!
I don’t say they are worthless. No player under contract is worthless. Even GMJ and Vernon Wells were traded.
Their primary value though is their making league minimum and can hit a little. There’s value in that and hey, who knows. a post season team who has already qualified might not want a backup MIer on their roster in the playoffs. If your not listening then your probably missing out on a few good trades.
I’d listen to everything. Like I said you never know. Personally I think the 2B situation, while far from ideal, is a lot better than at anytime since Fonzie was here. With 3 guys for 2013-2020 we have a good chance there, 2 guys (and an emergency if need be) who can platoon AND cover 1B, 3B and SS in a dire emergency. Question is though backup MIer. Reyes cannot play every single day and late inning D could save a few games.
The trade makes you pick one, right now, ready too or not. Pick the wrong one you can upset the cart. What if Tejada never hits and Turner reverts. What if Wright goes down again? Then your playing Tejada full time. How about Davis going down? With no Murph who plays 1B?
Listen though. No question.
Yes you do! you do it with a blanket whenever you mention how WORTHLESS our farm system is!
Those guy WERE/ARE in the system.
A system you have complained about for a year now!
Just because you can’t swap Turner for Rollins doesn’t mean you don’t have a farm that is tradeable and can get something of need for you!
And when we talk about a PROSPECT you and I seem to have two very different POVs on what that means.
To me a prospect is someone who MIGHT succeed as a Major Leaguer and have a career in the MLB. Not every Minor league prospect makes it to the MLB. Not every player in the MLB plays until they are 40 or makes an All Star game but there are many major leaguers who never get that far due to health or lack of consistency or get overshadowed by the two BEST 2Bs in the MLB and because those guys get all the votes every year in the all star voting.
Doesn’t make the other 25+ guys worthless or not Major leaguers!
Turner is probably an average 2B. Maybe slightly better, maybe slightly worse. But he is a SUCCESS because he is in the MLB which many “PROSPECTS” never do! Or do and are so bad that they can’t stay as long as that average guy did.
MAYBE thats Turner as well!
But you don’t know, I don’t know and all we can agree on is if he DOES continue to do what he is doing you should re assess your opinion of our Farm because if you were wrong about him your probably wrong about a lot of guys you think ARE prospects!
And since he has value now that he is up in the MLB and doing well so much for the awful drafting of the past because getting a MLB player out of any draft is tough to do!
Well I have reasons that are unrelated to a direct player to player comparison when I say that…
Your right he may not. But the timing of when that might happen coincides with the start of the trading deadline talk. Bletran will likely be gone after that, who knows what the deal is with Reyes. If Beltran goes then they will need more power in the lineup and Murphy provides that better than Turner.
If reyes goes then Turner will be the SS. Murphy 2nd Everyone stays.
If we keep Reyes then Murphy or Turner gets traded while the getting is good.
You see we agree Turner is a Major Leaguer. Maybe we agree that Murphy is too! Which is just the type of PROSPECT some say we don’t have that can be used to trade for what we do need somewhere else. Like Maybe a trade for a bat for the OF position vacated by Beltran’s leaving!
If we have two good 2Bs who could start then trade him for something we don’t have even one of. Don’t you think a package of (Turner or Murphy) Fmart and some other MiLer like Havens or Duda could not net us a good replacement for Beltran?
I agree let them play and play the best. But just because you have someone BETTER at the position doesn’t mean the rest of the guys behind him are NOT GOOD, NOT TRADEABLE, WORTHLESS!
Some will be but not ALL of them. And the ones that are not can be used to make the trades everyone says we can’t make because our farm system sucks and we need to trade reyes Beltran Pelfrey, Bay and Wright and build around prospects and Ike Davis!!!
I wasn’t aware Turner can play SS. If he can, that may give Tejada some much-needed extra time to season in the minors. Then he can start next season fresh as the SS. It would be a big bonus.
I don’t think you can trade anyone that we have that could play 2B except for the untradeable Hu, That’s it. Neither Tejada, Murphy or Turner is a complete player. Your gonna have some progress and some backsliding. The only way we’re treading water at 2B is the strength in numbers but we’re even disapating that to address other positions. There is no guarantee that Davis or Wright will never miss another game once they get back.
We don’t have enough depth. We have no excess expendable talent. I f we can move Beltran we have to, for the future unless we have a REAL realistic shot. Otherwise it would be a waste to not get something going forward.
If we’re out of it Fern/Evans is fine for 2 months.
If Turner could play SS he would have been traded, not cut. Have you seen all these one dimensional SS in the Majors. 35+ year old’s? He couldn’t even be a backup MIer because he can’t play SS except in an emergency.
There is that. That’s a good point. Incidentally, I looked up Turner’s minor league fielding stats and his next position after 2B as far as games played is in fact SS, although his 12 errors in 53 games is Ruben Tejada-like. So that’s a no-go.
Again just opinion based on numbers BEFORE Turner came up and started winning games for us!
You wish to believe your Minor League eyes and discount your Major League eyes.
But in the end it isn’t about what he does or did in the Minors it is about what he does while up in the ML.
Someone had the opinion that the end of the world was yesterday. The reality is very different than opinion.
And to answer the Tejada like fielding, if you really were interested in a good performance by your SS you wouldn’t have gotten rid of Reyes in the first place.
If you trade him for future Turner serves the purpose of filling in until that future comes along. In either case the fact that you had him made someone (himself or someone else) EXPENDABLE!
Never intended to actually imply he could, just that he likely would based on his batting compared to the next best guy we have Tejada.
Truth is they might even move Wright to SS and play Turner at 3rd. So many ways to slice it up to deal with the fact you have TOO MANY good infielders that have come from your farm!
Metsie you have got to be kidding us. Wright at SS? Please stop, my sides are splitting. Turner and Murphy will be ridden at 2B until they get bucked off. They’ll also back up 1B and 3B.
If they make it through the season unscathed they’ll get a chance at it next year with Tejada in the mix if he’s not playing SS or hitting his weight in AAA.
The combination of Murphy and Turner might make it September OK and who knows maybe even thrive but realism, not best case scenario is the safest way to approach this.
We appreciate the chuckle though.
They said the same things about Alfonso when we started playing musical positions with him as well and made him play 3B, 2B and even tried to say the same thing about both when we tried HoJo at SS!
Not Likely? Well maybe, What is likely is if they don’t sign Reyes this year for the reasons everyone notes then chances are they won’t renew Wright for the same reasons and then it’s moot, Turner at 3B Murphy at 2nd Tejada at SS. Does that really sound any better of an Infield to you?
I know you say keep Reyes, but truth is that is unlikely as well. So you could be looking at Turner and Murphy as your infield for quite awhile….
IF they do what you want them to which is have no big signings to hold us over and just build from the draft and trades with a farm you deem is worthless and broken.
If you REALLY want them to do that then you had better PRAY Turner is what he has shown so far and Murphy too!
Regardless of what the prospect prospectus tells you they are SUPPOSED to be!
Edgardo Alfonzo was in the Majors at 21 years of age. Came in 13th in the MVP voting his 3rd season at 23 and was never DFA’d until 15 years after we signed him.
How can you possibly compare what people thought about Alfonzo and Turner? Cause they both played 2B and 3B in the same season? I read a few glowing reports about Alfonzo when he was in the minors. He was even ranked by Baseball America as the 74th and 31st best prospects in all of the Minors.
Please.
Please also stop saying that I have said that our farm system is worthless. I have never said any such thing. I am pissed off at how we draft lesser talent on purpose to save money, do a poor job on IFA’s to save money and do a poor job of developing players and then rush anyone who looks like they could do anything up here before their ready.
I do hope we resign Reyes. I see no reason why we shouldn’t. An infield of Turner, Tejada, Murphy and Davis wouldn’t be to our advantage.
You are a fraud – you call people out for taking a shot at Reyes and you do the same about Wright every chance you get – you hippocrate.
In addition, for someone who stands on a soap box daily to proclaim they know the game, you prove over and over again, how you just don’t.
If you think a few very nice games by Turner is upstaging Wright just proves that point just too easily.
I’m sorry, I can’t hear you because I’m wearing my limited edition David Wright earplugs.
In all seriousness, I take shots at David Wright (and other Mets) more than you think. I refer to him as David K. Wright when he goes on a strikeout binge and I even took a shot at him in my recap of the first quarter of the 2011 season on Studious Metsimus when I said (for the whole post, click here http://studiousmetsimus.blogspot.com/2011/05/first-quarter-recap-things-we-observed.html )
“The recently-DL’ed third baseman has struck out 43 times in 146 at-bats this season (an average of one strikeout every 3.4 at-bats). The Mets’ starting rotation (Mike Pelfrey, Jonathon Niese, R.A. Dickey, Chris Capuano, Dillon Gee) has struck out 25 times in 65 at-bats. But Chris Capuano has struck out nine times in 12 at-bats. Therefore, the other four starters have gone down on strikes only 16 times in 53 at-bats, or once every 3.3 at-bats. Perhaps his time on the DL will remind David Wright that he should stop running away from good pitches and start making contact with them.”
And for the record, I didn’t take a shot at Justin Turner. I’m just saying that we shouldn’t get ahead of ourselves with him. The Mets have made mistakes before trying to give too much responsibility to players before they were ready for it (like Mike Vail). Justin is a nice player and I hope he succeeds, whatever his role on the team is.
By the way, that comment was for my buddy from Bayonne. He’s all Wright in my book!
Oh sweetie I forgot to tell you, you left your pompoms in your lunch box again. #BlameDavidWrong *rolleyes* *rolleyes* *rolleyes*
Thanks, babe. I was wondering where they were.
You are hilarious and nice post.
Admitting it’s just you who thinks that the team is better off without Wright shows you have some insight into your assessments. Ed wrote a fine article but you basically just see attacks on players you’ve invested in. To me it’s nuts. Maybe you’re afraid that Justin Turner will hit well enough to replace the non-hitting asset the Mets now have in the infield. Yes, it’s unbelievable, but not in the way you think. When Wright comes back he’s going to play at some point. Turner is not Ty Cobb at the plate.
Oh sweetie? Thanks babe? Either you two are married or rapture did come.
MNJ, you must not know that we really are married (but the whole sweetie and babe thing is apocalyptic – according to some on this site, I’m abusive!)
Don’t worry, Facebook says you’re married.
It.
Never.
Lies.
Reese Havens made his first start on 2011 today for Port St. Lucie against Daytona. The game is still in play. Havens, batting third, hit a double his first time up. The next three times he had two walks and one ground out.
Man Des, That’s great news. Reece coming through big would be HUGE for us. Thanks for the news.
Game’s over at Daytona. Reese Havens went 2 for 3, with a double and a line drive single to center field. He had 2 RBI, and two walks. His out came on a grounder to second base.
Now if he can play the next game, maybe we’re in business, big time. Let’s see and keep our fingers crossed. It was a great start.
Forget the double and rbi’s, he had 2 WALKS! That means he’ll be up here in Citifield in a heartbeat! Actually I like Havens a lot and hope he continues to produce.