7
2011
Giants GM Denies Reyes Trade Rumors
An article by Hojo's Mojo
Giants GM Brian Sabean denied a report that he has dicussed a swap for Jose Reyes with the Mets.
“Honestly, I haven’t seen or talked to Sandy Alderson since January. I haven’t talked to anybody from the Mets, so I have no idea where the hell it came from.”
Yesterday after the game, Jose Reyes was asked about his impending free agency and told SNY he has had no conversations regarding his contract and would rather not think about it or pay attention to any of the rumors.
“I’m still a New York Met, so whatever happens, happens. I just want to play baseball,” Reyes said. “I just told my agent, ‘I just want to focus on playing baseball. I don’t want to think about anything else,’ because right now I’m still a New York Met.”
Original Post 5/4 – Source: Mets Are Shopping Jose Reyes
Last night, Jose Reyes reached base in all six plate appearances with three walks, a double and two singles and dating back to Sunday has reached in seven straight plate appearance (walk). The three walks tied his career-high which he has done five previous times, the last coming on August 18, 2008 vs. Atlanta.
Reyes in now batting .325 to lead the team and for those of you keeping tabs, his on-base percentage is at a robust .377. He has as many walks, eleven, as strikeouts, which seemed to be a huge thing when some fans elated over Brad Emaus earlier this season. Reyes also has 11 stolen bases to lead the National League.
According to a report by Mychael Urban of CSN Bay Area, the Giants have discussed Jose Reyes as a possible trade target and more importantly it appears that the Mets have decided to field offers for Reyes and his $11MM salary this summer.
Mired in major financial trouble as the result of owner Fred Wilpon’s alleged ties to Bernie Madoff and the infamous “Ponzi Scheme,” the Mets, according to the New York-based source, have already decided to shop Reyes (and perhaps Carlos Beltran and David Wright) and will be looking to stockpile and rebuild with high-level prospects rather than established players anywhere near arbitration or free agency.
With no internal options available at shortstop, the Giants are looking to fill that void via trade and Jose Reyes has been widely discussed.
Reyes, 27, is a one-man show when he’s healthy, and he’s been just that this year for the Mets, who are paying him $11 million in the option year of his contract. Expected to be one of the top free-agent targets after the season, Reyes entered Tuesday’s opener of a three-game series against the Giants batting .309 with nine doubles, two triples, a home run and 10 stolen bases in 28 games.
The source noted that a Giants-Mets swap could work in that New York isn’t likely to do what many teams have done to end conversations with Giants general manager Brian Sabean: demand a member of San Francisco’s vaunted starting rotation.
So for those of you who are thinking Sanchez or Cain may be in the offing in a Reyes swap, think again.
It appears this will be a pure salary dump with only prospects coming in exchange if it actually comes to fruition.
Like all rumors, take it with a grain of salt. This is not the first time since last season ended that Jose Reyes has been linked to the Giants, so this rumor may have legs.
It would bother me to see us trade Reyes for prospects, especially when the majority of them never even make it to the majors and half of those who do end up mostly in reserve roles. You would think a player as dynamic as Reyes who can be such a catalyst for any team, could be traded without any proven major league r in return, especially a starting pitcher who we desperately need.
About the Author: Rob Johnson
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
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Sell this team already. You have to eventually give the fans a team they have some hope will be successful. The Wilpons are being very selfish! KEEP REYES!!!
Nail on the head Frank. If (when) we lose Reyes it will be solely due to the selfishness of those loser idiots, the Wilpons. They will continue to drag the Mets down into the muck with them until they are finally forced to sell the team. I look forward to the day, when little Jeffy is torn from his luxury suite at Citi, and dragged from the ballpark kicking and screaming and clawing the walls.
Pete, what an intoxicating picture u draw, ‘cept u left out the noose & the flagpole to hang him from.
I’m praying an astute paRtner comes along at the last desperate moment insisting upon the title & power of managing partner be bestowed before he autographs the $200M check. Personally, I believe Reyes may be induced to stay for a 5y period(’12-’17) for about the same as they’ll waste on Santana over the next 2 full seasons aboout $75M. If it were me, I’d assure Jose the resperct he deserves by promoting him alongside Wright as co-faces of the future foundation structuring a deal in this manner:
initial signing bonus % 5M
2012 11M
2013 13M
2014 15M(mutual opt out clause for either party’s use)
2015 15M
2016 club option 16M
With all this speculation about Crawford money, I’ve yet to hear it from Reyes or his agent, pETER gREENBERG, directly. Opt out after third Season can be activated by either party giving both maximum protection should Mets fail to progress as a team or Reyes continue his fragility issues.
After waiting ALL of these years for Jose to finally fulfill his ever increasing potential, it’s certaibnly counterintuitive to trade him just as he’s entering the PRIME productivity age (28-31). I perceive those years as the greatest oportunity to maximize the benefit of further Reyes investnment, thus my 3y span of locking him in for certain.
Before anyone gets their back up over my Santana reference/compariison ask yourself this;
Which is more likely, a position player @ age 27 improves his game OR a SP after shoulder surgery+2 other pitching related surgeries improves at age 32?
Therefore I submit that investing $75M in Reyes over the next 5 yrs through 2017 is a sounder invstment that the remaining 72.5M in Santana through 2014.
My trasdeable assets are SANTANA, K-ROD & BELTRAN. more than likely this team is not in contention for another 2-3 yrs 2013 or 2014. By that time Santana’s current deal has been bought out in 2013 @ age 34, K-Rod is certainly replaced & Berltran’s using a motorized wheelchair to patrol the Little League field he built in PR. ONLY Reyes would/could be considered still viable @ his current position & leadoff spot @ age 30.(still well in his PRIME!)
You are suggesting the Mets sell the team which may be right, but if it means keeping the same flawed philosophy of this new front office it will be the same old mess.
lol, flawed philosophy. if their philosophy was flawed what was Minaya’s?
Well according to you very good since he won 97 games! Almost as many as Oakland did!
And HE made it to the WS, something Oakland has NEVER done!
one year Metsie, one year out of six that he was GM.
and when did Minaya make it to the world series Metsie?
Classic Metsie. Moneyball didn’t work cause it never won a World Series but Monkeyball does because it got to a World Series…..or did it? Wait a second. When?
Got there 7 times and won 5 under the Yankees!
When was Omar with the Yankees? You need to check up on your facts before calling other people out.
It was probably the same year he went to the World Series
Metsie, I already showed you how most of the NYY team was all homegrown or traded for with prospects from their farm and then filled in behind and supplemented with non compensatable free agents other than Kenny Rogers.
The NYY didn’t build a team through free agency, they built it through the farm, then added specific parts through free agency that didn’t require giving up draft choices, huge dollars and long term deals.
That’s a big reason why they have been able to sustain their success and that success has allowed them to prudently add expensive free agents AFTER they had built it up but they still have their solid core, new homegrown parts, Nova, Joba, Hughes, Gardiner, Cano, Cervelli, and players like Swisher, A-Rod and Granderson added by trades from the farm.
We added a couple of expensive free agents almost every year for 6 straight years. The NYY back when their current run started added one.
What the hell does that have to do with their success compared to Oaklands?
All I’m saying is APPARENTLY their plan was better and WORKED better than Moneyball.
Care to disagree? Explain why! Because Oakland was cheap?
Is how much you spend weight your accomplishments?
Is so then Moneyball is a revolution in Economics not a revolution in winning baseball!
Because it didn’t win as much as the yankees plan nor any other team that has won a WS more than Oakland did!
You just can’t compare the two teams resources. I think that was a central part of the story.
“You just can’t compare the two teams resources.”
We were comparing their SUCCESS! You guys moved onto resources when the Success comparison was brought up and you needed to change the subject away from the fact that Oakland was NOT in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM a success unless you limit your comparisons to teams that did not make the playoffs!
It’s kind of like defining Success as A team who spends little and plays in Pittsburg. Under those conditions Pittsburg is a success!
Obviously a team winning 103 games after losing three of their best players, playing in a tough Division, with a miniscule payroll is an insignificant achievement.
Right.
I wish we could realize an insignificant achievement like that once in a while. Maybe someday without having to wait for a Marlin financial sell off in order to accomplish the goal.
And just exactly which World Series did Omar get to?
“Obviously a team winning 103 games after losing three of their best players, playing in a tough Division, with a miniscule payroll is an insignificant achievement.”
Well it might be considered significant if they didn’t CHOOSE to lose those three players or insist on a miniscule Payroll!
And if it is significant then it really is no more of a success than lets say Chris getting a C on a test because he’s dumb and had a much harder time scoring so well on a test!
If we are talking success how much you spend is irrelevant! Oakland CHOSE to spend that little and by doing sop CHOSE to let those guys get away.
And it is those choices you guys tried to Herald as a Revolutionary new concept in Baseball when all it really was revolutionary about was econimically putting money into the Owners pocket he would not allow them to spend because it wasn’t about building a winner it was about building a fortune!
Metsie you know perfectly well it was the finances that prevented the A’s from resigning the three players they lost.
Your acting like it was by choice they let those players go so they could test some new theory of their’s. That wasn’t the case and you know that. Resigning those players for what the NYY, Red Sox, and St. Louis paid would have eaten the whole budget. The choice was made for them.
The A’s of the late 80′s had an owner who made up for the shortfall of many millions every year in order to maintain a winning team but the new A’s owner is not as beneovalant. He may want to win but he wants to balance the books first and foremost.
You can express the opinion that he shouldn’t be in the baseball business if you want to and you could be right about that but nontheless this is what the A’s were working with and around.
Anyone with an open mind would have to agree that the A’s did well given their circumstances. Whether their approach is suitable in a large market is certainly up for examination but to compare their ultimate results against the largest market teams is not being objective. You have no idea what the owners of the A’s primary goals are. Without knowing that how can you even say if they were successful or not?
I suppose you can claim they didn’t meet your definition of success but you cannot say that they didn’t meet the owner of the teams definition of success because you don’t even know what that was.
Close your mind all you want to Metsie, I don’t care. The fact is that with a 43 Million dollar payroll they won two Division titles. If you want to compare them to anyone compare them to us. We had a 120 Million dollar payroll in 2002 and a 160 Million dollar payroll in 2003 and finished last both years, and we did it with the same manager the A’s had won three straight post seasons with.
What conclusion can be drawn from that? Monkeyball beats moneyball? I don’t think so. I think the only rational conclusion that can be drawn from that comparison is that the A’s, with their highly talented homegrown players like Zito, Hudson, Mulder, Chavez, Tejada, Ellis and then filled in around with well conceived, well thought out trade acquisitions and non comp free agents is a far superior philosophy than just waiting around every year to see who you can get for every position of need through the compensatable free agent class.
Only a monkey would disagree.
And who imposed those limitations? The MLB or Oakland itself?
Should we give them a handicap in credit because they were dumb and handcuffed themselves into an unsuccessful (By MLB standards) plan?
Here is the monkey logic you are trying to spew on us here…
Despite self imposed limitations…
It still failed to compete with the REST of the MLB.
Still failed to win the goal of every team in the league.
WIN A WS!
Only a monkey would disagree with THAT!
Failed to compete with the rest of MLB? No team in MLB won more baseball games than the A’s in the 2002 season. How exactly is that not competing?
The A’s won their Division in a year that that Seattle won 93 games and Anaheim won 99 and the World Series. Explain to us again how that is not competing?
22 of the 30 teams in MLB didn’t qualify for the post season. The 2002 Oakland A’s did. That’s not just competing, that’s successfully competing and not like your God like swami who made the post season once in six years and only then when Philly didn’t break .500 until August 20th, Florida didn’t until Sept. 17th, Atlanta didn’t after May 3rd and Washington never did and that’s with the highest payroll in the league compared to Oakland’s lowest.
Whether you agree with it or not payroll IS dictated by resources. That’s the central theme of the entire book.
Every business in every industry has a budget with which they have to work around. You can lament that you don’t have the same budget to work with that your competitors do or you can attempt to keep up and surpass them using the resources you do have. By any objective measurement that’s what the A’s did.
The NYY didn’t win the World Series that year despite an almost unlimited budget to work with. Either did Boston or the Mets.
Monkeyball got us to the postseason once in six years and was primarilly due to an overall week NL and an extremely weak NL East. Monkeyball got us 88, 89, 70 and 79 wins with the highest payroll in the entire league.
Only a monkey wouldn’t be able to see the difference.
“Failed to compete with the rest of MLB? No team in MLB won more baseball games than the A’s in the 2002 season.”
And did they get a trophy for that?
Angels got one!
When it came time to beat the best teams in the MLB they folded!
So obviously they were not the best team in the MLB just had the best record which depends more on your chedule than how good your team ACTUALLY is when facing other WINNING teams!
“22 of the 30 teams in MLB didn’t qualify for the post season. The 2002 Oakland A’s did.”
As well as 28% of the rest of the MLB did…More than a Quarter of the league DID make the Playoffs!
And Oakland couldn’t beat that Quarter of the league to advance to the WS!
Thats like saying Your the BEST based only when compared to 73% of the league but ignore the other 28%!
Because if you INCLUDE them they aren’t the best anymore!
It is not different than manipulating and cherry picking stats to make an argument that isn’t true when ALL the parameters are used!
Who was the baseball champion in 2002? If not Oakland your argument fails!
Minaya made it to the World Series? Did the Expos have a run I am unaware of?
lol, Metsie can’t be take seriously on this thing man. every day he shows us more and more how he knows nothing about this game. He lives in his own world, which he shares with Bayonne.
I can’t wait to hear what his excuse for this one will be, ’cause every time I prove him wrong he comes up with a classic one.
it will either be….
“um, I mean, came within one big hit from making it to the world series.”
hmm, one big hit away from beating the far inferior Cardinals in seven games? sounds a lot like the crapshoot that October is.
or…
“um, I meant Sandy Alderson”
oh, you mean the GM of the NY Mets?
This from the guy who thinks a walk is a hit!
LOLOLOLOLOL, what???
just as I suspected.
This from a guy who advocates swinging at everything even remotely resembling a strike. Completely ignoring the fact that 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-0 and 3-1 counts are by FAR AND AWAY where not only the MOST hits are produced but the MOST extra base hits as well.
As far as I am aware the only way to get into a hitters count is to NOT swing at BALLS.
Closer than Oakland ever got to one isn’t it?
Hey Tag is that what I said? When did I say that?
Funny how you guys leep ignoring the points I make to try and change the subject because lets face it Your moneyball has been blown to bits by every other team that doesn’t use it and won a WS!
I said WITH TWO STRIKES to swing at balls that could be called a strike.
But as is commo0n with all you Moneyball OBP guys you need to change the facts to fit your religion!
I slammed your ass hard in this entire thread one you all stayed out of because you couldn’t come up with an explanation WHY the GREASTED BASEBALL PHILOSOPHY SINCE SLICED BREAD has never won a WS!
Minaya got closer to one than Oakland EVER has!
Yankees have won more than any moneyball team over the course of a decade.
And just because the three of you religious Beanophytes get together isn’t going to change the fact that Oakland has NEVER WON ANYTHING under MONEYBALL!
And NEVER WINNING IS A FAILURE!
If you think otherwise then YOU are also a FAILURE!
Here endith the lesson!
You guys keep trying to change the facts and mis interpret what I said!
One thinks you should never swing
Another thinks a walk is as good as a hit and another thinks OBP tells you something about hitting better than BA!
That pretty much says it all about who we are dealing with here!
You guys are all WRONG!
Your all fools for believing in the success of a systemn with NO success unless you bring success down to 1/3rd of what the league does as SUCCESS!
Try that on an entrance exam to Mensa. Try telling them that because you didn’t study and aren’t smart that failing to meet the requirements of Mensa you should be allowed in and called a SUCCESSFUL GENIUS!
Watch them laugh you right out of the facility!
Prove Moneyball can win something other than your division!
Until you do your just chattering idiots without a shred of proof to what you believe.
So, you are celebrating getting close now? What was that you were babbling about mediocrity?
Excuse me isn;’t that what YOU guys did when you suggested Oakland was a winner?
Who cares that they didn;t win they got close!
ROFLMAO!
Funny how when your own value of success is used on a team you don’t believe is successful all of a sudden you don’t like it anymore!
Oakland has never got to within one game of the WS. Mets did!
So I guess on YOUR success scale Omar was more successful than Oakland.
What the matter Donal no smart a$$ed snide retort?
You don’t like your own “Success” Scale anymore?
Is this another example of you beating my butt you referred to before?
Sorry sonny looks like you showed just how bad you are at debates again!
Used your own scale against you! Just as I have with OBP and many other subjects you dared to tangle with me on!
Metsie, I’m not a moneyball guy. I’m a compete now without taking away from your future while building a team from within guy. That way you can keep it going. Doing both simultaneously, not just one or the other but I can still appreciate that a small market team was able to win 103 games in a tough division, even after losing three of their best players. I don’t get why anyone wouldn’t see that as a pretty remarkable achievement.
I’m more of a law of large numbers guy. Acquire as many draft choices as possible. Draft all the best players and sign them even to overslot bonuses. Sign the ten best international free agents, hire the best scouts and development people and properly develop our prospects.
If that means we have to tread water for a couple of years in order to have our first decade of competability then that’s OK with me.
Moneyball for us all along should have been about getting the best players in our uniform at the point in their career when they are at their best. For 6,8 10 years. Having highly talented prospects that we can trade for frontline pitching available in our system. That’s they kind of moneyball a big market team should have been employing all these years.
That’s my idea of moneyball. Spread some seed money around every year, water, fertilize, prune and harvest. Before you know it you’ve developed a culture in your organization that has much stronger roots than throwing a bunch of merceneries at the end of their career’s together and expecting everything to go right.
I didn’t realize I am supposed to be on your schedule. Quite the ego you have.
“Excuse me isn;’t that what YOU guys did when you suggested Oakland was a winner?
Who cares that they didn;t win they got close!”
You do realize there are several factors involved, right? Like sustainability, payroll, etc etc?
They both made the LCS in 2006, the thing is, unlike Minaya, Beane has several other playoff runs under his belt.
Obviously, Beane fell short of the ultimate goal, but he put his team in a better position to keep attempting said goal than Minaya did.
“Funny how when your own value of success is used on a team you don’t believe is successful all of a sudden you don’t like it anymore!”
If Minaya had the payroll Beane did and repeated playoff appearances, I’d have a higher opinion of Minaya and whatever system he used.
“Oakland has never got to within one game of the WS. Mets did!
So I guess on YOUR success scale Omar was more successful than Oakland.”
Except that one of the things I look at is sustainability. How many times did an Omar built team make the playoffs?
“You do realize there are several factors involved, right? Like sustainability, payroll, etc etc?”
And you do realize that every team who made and won a WS had the same exact things involved but won a WS anyway?
Let me ask you when you took a test at school did they give you 10 extra points on the test because you were poor or mentally challanged?
SUCCESS is what it is! And in Baseball that is winning a World Series.
If you wish to lower the bar to include Oakland as a success then that bar gets applied to the Mets and makes Omar a greater success than Oakland!
He made his success in a year! Oakland has been at it for over 15 and still nothing!
GREAT PLAN! Maybe if we implement it right now we might be as successful as Oakland was in YOUR opinion by the time 2035!
Great idea lets do that! ROFLMAO!
What you look at as far as sustainability is your OBP centric religion and sustaining that! Moneyball used OBP so you use it as the BIBLE of OBP success proof.
But we all know it didn’t succeed at all. Can’t sustain what you never had in the first place!
Metsie you are crazy. Omar had his success in one year? What success did he have in a year? Coming in third place? Going 83-79? Spending 200 Million (and trying to spend 280 M) to get there?
That’s success and going to the post season four straight years is not?
Whoo boy Metsie!
Hey Tag thats what you guys defined as success when talking about Oakland!
If Oakland is a success for making the playoffs but not making it to the world series then so are the 2006 Mets!
You don’t like your Success scale now? Want to change it yet again?
How about making the playoffs bit not the world series on a tuesday when the moon is full, maybe that works too!
Metsie, I define the first order (and most difficult part) of success as making the playoffs, so in that respect, your right, in 2006 we got the playoffs. Success.
Getting there once or twice a decade though, especially with the highest payroll does not reek of success to me though.
Getting there four years in a row with a bottom of the barrel budget does seem successful but my comment was in regard to your claiming Omar’s success was in one year, it wasn’t. Omar’s first year we went 83-79 finished tied for 3rd in the NL East. Impressive considering where we were but not success.
Donal when you tell me what Oakland won a WS I will answer your questions.
So far you and Chris are the biggest Moneyball OBP religionists going and that means no credibility because you think getting a B on a test is REVOLUTIONARY!
The Yankees have won 5 WS and been to 7!
So much for Moneyball!
FALSE GODS, FALSE RELIGIONS!
we’re still waiting to hear when Minaya made it to the world series.
Oakland won a World Series in 1989. Of course, I’ve never claimed the As won a WS under Beane’s tenure the way you just claimed Omar Minaya went to a WS.
You are mistaking me for someone who hasn’t made you look stupid on multiple occassions.
there could be a club of people that have made Metsie look stupid on multiple occasions…but it would prob include most people on here.
Actually, I think the person that holds the record for it would be Metsie himself. Most of the time, you can just get him frothing at the mouth and let him go.
lolol.
Yeah how long was Moneyball involved in that WS win Donal?
Another example of changing the subject to hise the fact you can’t prove your assertion that Moneyball is good?
Keep hiding!
And speaking of frothing no one has to even goad you to start flapping garbage that is proved to be wrong time after time!
Like OBP is better to judge hitters than BA.
Like a guy can MAKE a pitcher throw him balls!
Like a batter can WILL a pitch to be a ball!
Like an ALSO RAN has the best plan going!
ROFLMAO!
You guys just won’t give up your false god Beane!
Even Beane doesn’t agree with you anymore he has a new religion!
“Yeah how long was Moneyball involved in that WS win Donal?
”
I think Lewis had just published Liar’s poker in 1989, so I doubt a book he wouldn’t publish for another 14 years had anything to do with their 1989 WS win.
“Another example of changing the subject to hise the fact you can’t prove your assertion that Moneyball is good?”
More like another example of you getting so worked up, you realy have no idea what you want to say.
“Keep hiding!”
Que?
“And speaking of frothing no one has to even goad you to start flapping garbage that is proved to be wrong time after time!”
Just because you declare it wrong, doesn’t mean its been proven wrong.
“Like OBP is better to judge hitters than BA”
It is.
“Like a guy can MAKE a pitcher throw him balls!”
A hitter can work a count
“Like a batter can WILL a pitch to be a ball!”
I personally don’t believe that, but Rickey Henderson has some interesting theories on it.
“Like an ALSO RAN has the best plan going!”
Never said that. I would say it was better than Minaya’s plan but he didn’t seem to have a plan.
“You guys just won’t give up your false god Beane!
Even Beane doesn’t agree with you anymore he has a new religion!”
And here we have the frothing at the mouth bit.
Metsie, a hitter doesn’t need to MAKE a pitcher throw balls. Pitchers do it all the time…..on purpose, as well as by missing. Sometimes they throw strikes when their really trying to throw balls, happens all the time. Many of these wind up being called mistakes in post game interviews.
Chances are very good that 90% of base hits on 0-2 counts are pitches that missed. Pitches that were suppossed to be balls and wound up in the strike zone.
Your right that a hitter cannot MAKE a pitcher throw him a ball but very few hitters in any league would want that anyway. What hitters can do, (like Murphy did in your example) is make pitchers throw strikes and the way you do that is by not swinging at balls.
It’s all about getting good pitches to hit and then hitting them. If you don’t get one then you have to have the discipline and unselfishness to take the walk.
Hey Donal Keep Hiding! Hiding = Ignoring the fact that your scale was used against you and you tried to change the subject and not admit when your scale is used the Mets are a bigger success than Oakland when using that scale!
Hiding = Changing the subject to 1989 when Moneyball had not even invented yet to subterfuge the point that MONEYBALL OAKLAND never won a WS!
Hiding = your unwillingness to answer the following question on your beliefs that OBP is better for judging hitters than BA.
Which player HITS BETTER?
The .400 OBP guy with a .250 Avg or the .400 OBP guy with a .350 Avg.
Tell us how you decided just by the OBP and nothing else! Go on tell us and if you don’t THERE is the fact that proves you WRONG! Not a claim by me JUST PURE FACT! You won’t answer because you know you can’t and not admit I’m right your wrong!
Tag – you say your not moneyball but you are all about not paying high salaries, hoarding draft picks, letting Type A FAs go to get them and building only from within.
Pretty much what Oakland did under moneyball!
If you changed your tact on signing and keeping FAs then you might have taken the step Beane never took and went beyond the Moneyball religion.
For fans of a team who has only gone to the post season seven times in fifty years (twice by a good bit of luck and 3 times by the generosity of a Division rival in giving us some of the best players in baseball) to proclaim that a small market team with a payroll 25% of ours going to the post season 4 straight years in insignificant is a little shortsighted.
We’ve only gone to the post season back to back once and the one time we did was extremely lucky. (Cinn losing 3 of their last 4, us beating Pittsburgh on a wild pitch walk off, and a one game playoff in Cinn)
Four times in a row with the Wild Card almost always going to the AL East. Not bad, especially considering they were competing in a Division where Seattle won 90+ 3 times including 116 games one year and another team won a World Championship.
The last three times we made the post season it was because either Florida or Atlanta and Florida tanked, Philly sucked or just wasn’t ready to compete yet and Montreal/Washington just wasn’t that good.
We really shouldn’t be looking down our nose at anyone especially considering that we have had the highest payroll in the entire NL over the last 20 years and just 3 post season to show for it.
“Metsie, a hitter doesn’t need to MAKE a pitcher throw balls. Pitchers do it all the time”
Keyword: PITCHERS DO IT! Not BATTERS!
Selecting a player by ignoring what the BATTER DID and instead counting what the PITCHER did means your player is only as good as the number of BAD PITCHERS you face!
I will say it again knowing you will ignore the point cause you just LOVE OBP!
If a BATTER has a .400 OBP but a .250 BA is the pitcher going to be scared of him enough to throw balls at him intentionally? Enough to walk him? More than a guy with a .400 OBP but .350 BA?
NO!
Sure a pitcher missed both onto and out of the zone.
Thats due to the PITCHER not the batter!
Walks are products of BAD PITCHING not GOOD OBP!
Walks can also be a product of GOOD HITTING because walking a batter may be better than what the guy can do by hitting! But OBP isn’t going to urge a pitcher to walk around the guy. Only the BA will convince him.
So on the scale of WHO is the CAUSE, WHO Deserves credit for the action of a walk. It is ALWAYS up to the pitcher either as an INTENTIONAL Ball or an UNINTENTIONAL ball that was supposed to be a strike that CAUSES the WALK.
The Batter does nothing but stand in the batters box to get it!
OBP awards credit based on standing there and letting something happen!
And the only thing a batter can do to encourage a Pitcher to walk him is to hit the ball well and for a high percentage when the pitcher DOES throw him strikes!
A .250 hitter with .400 OBP can’t do that!
A .350 hitter with a .350 OBP can do it better than him!
Lower OBP but still a greater chance at causing a pitcher to walk him!
This is the point lost on you OBP centric guys!
OBP does not say who is the better hitter it tells you who is the better walker in most cases.
Proof?
Tell me which guy is the better Hitter out of a pair of .400 OBP guys.
Player A or Player B!
One has a .300 BA the other has a .200 BA.
Tell me if your the pitcher which one you might want to walk without knowing which one has whioch BA if you can tell who is the better Hitter just using OBP!
“Hey Donal Keep Hiding! Hiding = Ignoring the fact that your scale was used against you and you tried to change the subject and not admit when your scale is used the Mets are a bigger success than Oakland when using that scale!”
As I’ve said several times, the scale includes payroll and sustainability. Omar doesn’t look so good comparatively.
“Hiding = Changing the subject to 1989 when Moneyball had not even invented yet to subterfuge the point that MONEYBALL OAKLAND never won a WS!”
You claimed Minaya went to more WS than the As. You never specified what time frame. And I said the As didn’t make the WS under Beane’s tenure. However, they made the ALCS in 2006 and the LDS 4 other times and have a better over all record than the Mets during Minaya’s tenure.
“Hiding = your unwillingness to answer the following question on your beliefs that OBP is better for judging hitters than BA.
Which player HITS BETTER?
The .400 OBP guy with a .250 Avg or the .400 OBP guy with a .350 Avg.
Tell us how you decided just by the OBP and nothing else! Go on tell us and if you don’t THERE is the fact that proves you WRONG! Not a claim by me JUST PURE FACT! You won’t answer because you know you can’t and not admit I’m right your wrong!”
I don’t answer it because it is a stupid question. What is the sample size? What are their respective BABIP? What kinds of hits are both hitters getting? Why don’t you give me a real life example of two players that stack up like that?
In 2009 Luis Castillo hit .309 and Adam Dunn hit .267. who was the better hitter?
Again, when you have to lie about what I’m saying to support your argument, then your argument is weak.
Metsie you seem to fell that pitchers are all super human. Can all throw strikes at will. They never lose the feel of a pitch, they never get squeezed, they never have an off day, they always have their good stuff, they always are in sync with their catcher, their always 100% on, always facing the lineup that they do their best against, always have the matchup advantage, never get distracted out there.
How do you explain pitchers getting walked? How about Rickey Henderson getting all those walks? Castillo? Tejada? How did Jon Niese get 8 walks in 66 PA last year?
Your not even taking into consideration all those times pitchers PURPOSELY throw balls.
Really Metsie your giving pitchers way too much credit.
oh my god Metsie, you are painful, painful to read.
a player who hits .250 will never have a .400 OBP, let alone .200. If he did he would have had to walk WELL over 100 times for that to occur. For a .200 hitter to have an OBP of .400 he would prob have to walk about 200 times. If you have an OBP of .400 you are 9.9 times out of ten a great hitter. Last year seven guys had an OBP of .400 and they are all elite hitters. Even the guys that were at .370 are all great hitters. to have a high OBP you HAVE to be a great hitter also, unless you are walking 150 times, which isn’t likely. and if you have great plate discipline you probably walk a lot and you are more than likely a good hitter. so if you’re asking if I’d rather have a great hitter with ok plate discipline, or a great hitter with great plate discipline, I’ll take the latter, thanks.
see man these are the things you just don’t see because you just don’t know the game like some of us. I don’t even know how you can still argue on here with any kind of dignity. You are like a boy amongst men.
You will just never get it Metsie. Yes pitchers are the one’s who throw balls, but it is hitters that decide to swing/not swing. Your not giving the hitter any credit for pitch recognition/location. That’s a huge part of hitting.
Almost everyone in the Majors can put a good swing on the ball but it is the biggest reason for washing out before the Majors is not being able to recognize the difference.
Check swing K’s are caused by hitters not recognizing in time (relative to how big their swings are) that the pitch is a ball. These types of K’s are at least as numerous as your oft stated called third strike diatribes. 50% on one hand 50% on the other.
Your also not taking into consideration Ike Davis good eye and the effect it has on his OVERALL offensive numbers, choosing to only discuss the times he’s been caught looking and not understanding that all the times he got the call is what put him ahead in the count. That got him those pitches to hit. Change one thing you change everything.
Just like your example of Murphy’s AB. If Murphy fishes on any of those first 3 changeups there is a great chance he strikes out. Because he didn’t he FORCED the pitcher to bring in the last changeup which left the park.
Why not add on full moons of a Tuesday?
The way you keep setting parameters on the scale to ONLY fit Moneyball your basically trying to say no team in Baseball has EVER been successful BUT Oakland…
Except those damn yankees who surpassed even your attempts to keep defining parameters based on money not actual success.
“Metsie you seem to fell that pitchers are all super human”
And you seem to think that when they fail the batter made them fail…
Explain how to win!
“a player who hits .250 will never have a .400 OBP, let alone .200. If he did he would have had to walk WELL over 100 times for that to occur.”
Oh yeah well a guy with 25 PA can have:
.400 OBP AND a .250 BA because thy are percentages and not dependent on counts!
but 3 year old like you with 2 year old debating skills and 1 year old intelligence wouldn’t know that!
Emaus has those numbers at some point this spring in fact.
lol wait wait wait, Metsie, what??? now we’re talking about 25 plate appearances, and not over the course of a full season? what the hell good is 25 plate appearances? that’s six games. last i checked a baseball season is 162. my god you make my head spin.
you are a trip Metsie. I hope everyone else is as entertained by this as I am. what’s most entertaining is when you get proven wrong and then completely change it to fit your argument, which is just about every single time. 25 plate appearances??? what????
Wrong again Metsie. You give no credit to the hitter for not swinging at what the pitcher wants him too swing at. Why not? Why is it a failure on the part of the pitcher? He throws a pitch (like those changeups to Murphy) and the hitter doesn’t bite. Isn’t that really a success by the hitter? Of course it is, and because of it he’s more likely now to get something good to hit (like Murphy did) rather than something even worse (while having to protect both sides)
It’s a cat and mouse game Metsie. You have to make pitchers throw you strikes otherwise you won’t get very many.
I thank God I had a hitting coach who explained this to all of us when we were about 8.
“Wrong again Metsie. You give no credit to the hitter for not swinging at what the pitcher wants him too swing at. Why not?”
Because if the Pitcher didn’t miss the plate he would not be able to stand there and do nothing!
Tell me someting Tag, When calculating a Pitchers stats in Sabers what does it say about Walks? Who are the SOLELY attributable to?
Yet you guy try to attribute them to the batter when it suits your OBP concept.
Tell me this Tag…
Your a pitcher, whop are you most likely to walk?
The guy with a .200 BA .400 OBP or the guy with the .350 BA and .400 OBP?
Who do you pitch around based on OBP alone?
Please tell us it’s the .200 BA guy becaue OBP tells you who is the better hitter so that BA can be ignored!
I don’t know that much about sabermetrics to answer your question Metsie. All I am telling you comes from playing baseball. Everyone who has ever been in a batters box knows that a pitcher will try to get the upper hand by throwing the illusion of a strike. Something that will cause you to want to swing but that you cannot do anything with and will most likely swing and miss. Only those extremely weak hitters get three straight fastballs before being dispatched back to the bench.
I never brought up sabermetrics and it really has not a thing to do with getting your self into a hitters count by not swinging at balls.
Many guys never swing at the first pitch. This is so wrong. Many times the first pitch is the best pitch and that’s what your there to do. Swing at the best pitch. That also gives the pitcher something to think about in subsequent AB’s both in this game and the next.
Getting into a 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-0, 3-1 count is exactly how the best hitters in baseball do their most damage and the only way to do that is to not swing at balls. Very simple.
One thing I notice Metsie is you keep bringing up walks when I’m talking hitting. Hitting, you know the thing that drives OBP 3-1 over everything else combined.
What will you respond with Metsie? how getting into a hitter count is a passive action? Dependent on cooperation of the pitcher? Mental telepathy or some other nonsense?
The pitcher will throw you balls on purpose and he’ll throw you balls by accident. If your good and your smart you’ll take the balls as a gift because they put you in a much better situation hitting wise. Any other thought on the subject would be the work of a fool.
Did you need to know Sabers to answer my Question of who you were more likely to walk?
“Everyone who has ever been in a batters box knows that a pitcher will try to get the upper hand by throwing the illusion of a strike.”
Right who decides to do that? The Batter or the Pitcher?
If the pitcher doesn’t throw the illusion then can the batter make the pitcher walk him?
If you think identifying the illusion is an accomplishment of the batter fine but the batter can not take credit for the Pitcher not throwing the strike!
If the Pitcher does not throw that ball then the OBP means nothing and the BA means everything, because in order to get OB in that situation the Batter MUST HIT IT!
So in the example I posed above (which you ignored because you knew you would have to say the .250 guy to make your argument hold true) It is the better hitter who will get the illusion more because the pitcher would prefer to walk him than allow him to hit it for something that could be a doub;le triple HR or RBI (if someone else is OB)
Not the batter who walks but doesn’t hit but the HITTER!
Yet the Saber guys all fight for OBP because it makes bad hitters look good based on pitchers missing not on any skills the batter actually has!
Other than observation!
As for getting into a Hitters count Why do they call it a hitters count pray tell?
Have a clue?
Is it because the Pitcher is most likely FORCED or compelled to throw a strike and what is the correct course of action for a batter in a HITTERS count?
Taking balls hoping for a walk? OR kniocking the snot out of a likely strike so you get much more than the lowly walk?
They call it a Hitters count for a REASON!
Cause guys with good BA no matter what their OBP is usually get a pitch to HIT!
And if you have a .250 BA it really doesn’t matter if you get a pitch to hit because 7.5 times out of 10 it will be an out!
3.5 times out of ten for the HITTER it will be a hit and maybe a hit for extra bases!
Metsie you have obviously never ever played this game in your entire life. You are lost, man.
Chris I thought you were lost?
Shouldn’t you be looking for a policeman to help you find where your mommy went?
The only one who is lost is YOU by your own admission in multiple posts…I suggest you let the grownups talk and go back to your fischer price playground!
In 2009 Luis Castillo hit .309 and Adam Dunn hit .267. who was the better hitter?
LOLOL, did you really just say that????
Just illustrating my point. Who would you rather in your line up?
“lol wait wait wait, Metsie, what??? now we’re talking about 25 plate appearances, and not over the course of a full season? what the hell good is 25 plate appearances? that’s six games. last i checked a baseball season is 162. my god you make my head spin.”
Note to Donal – The above is an even better example (posted by Chris) of hiding by trying to constantly change the subject due to the fact the poster knew he was about to look foolish.
Note that there is no discussion about how counts don’t matter when talking about percentages and now that a real example to answer his wrong asserrtion that a .400 OBP and a .250 BA is impossible without too many plate appearances he moves onto another subject hoping the smart people in the room will play!
We don’t play with children who when get hit on the side of the head with Logic, their head spins!
Chris – Time to change that diaper son!
Metsie what the hell are you talking about. Do YOU even know what you’re talking about???
Counts? counts of what? the count on the hitter? when were we talking about the count? you were talking about a .250 hitter having a .400 OBP, which is only possible with minimal plate appearances and not very likely over the course of a full season. what does the count have anything to do with that?
did I miss something?
“did I miss something?”
Yes the line where they gave out brains!
I know your lost, happens to idiots all the time.
Go re read you ******** about how many PAs a guy would have to have to have a .200 BA and .400 OBP and a .350BA and a .400 OBP
When you catch up let us know!
ROFLMAO!
I have no issue with trading Reyes, but just so you know the Giants farm system stinks. Unless we get Brandon Belt ( Ike plays first) or Bumgarner there is no one else any good
Isn’t that what the article is suggesting? Selling off the team Piece by piece?
Starting with Reyes Beltran and Wright?
If Reyes makes it to free agency and signs somewhere else we would get a first rounder and a supplementary round draft pick. Whatever prospects he would bring here would have to be as high ceiling as the two #1 picks would be other wise it’s yet another Met trade done for salary reasons and not for baseball one’s.
If Reyes were to be traded to SF Zach Wheeler would have to be one of the prospects coming here but I cannot see why after throwing so much money in the bay year after year we could not have any left for one of our own. What a complete screwup by ownership.
I agree t agee. Also if the Mets are that desperate that they have to dump his 11mill now , we have a lot bigger problems
Exactly.
This is looking like it’s more about the money, and nothing but the money.
The salary dump has long been used by the Wilpon as a bailout with guys like Marrero, Carter and Arias used as window dressing. If the same thing happens yet again, with Reyes, I am really going to be pissed.
The fact is we have spent so much money through the years on everybody else’s players and now we don’t have any left for one of our own?
Disgusting.
This is really no way to run a team.
Whatever happened to building the team from within? Now that homegrown Jose Reyes is reaching his prime we are dumping him for prospects? This is an even worse strategy than anything we saw from Minaya who never once traded a homegrown star. Those are the players you keep!
Wilpon’s don’t have the money to match what the market will pay Reyes.
Rebuilding is a 3-5 yr process.. Even if the Wilpon’s had the money to pay Reyes market value why would they if we’re 3-5yrs away from contending?
Besides Reyes is a “compiler” and we don’t want “compilers” on this team now do we.
if we trade reyes and others we are a lot farther away than 3-5 years from contending and you can kiss the fanbase goodbye.i certainly will not watch anymore.if the wilpons r that selfish and ignorant i’m done with this team.
God I hope not.
I mean I hope your wrong and we will not be 33-5yrs away.
“Besides Reyes is a “compiler” and we don’t want “compilers” on this team now do we.”
More compiler nonsense without ever proving that such a term means anything on a baseball field. Once again, PROVE YOUR ALLEGATION.
What do you mean compiler? Are you being sarcastic? Who are you referring to?
Met Maniac –
This needs to be answered by Lifelongmetsfan. I think the term ‘compiler’ is nonsense in a baseball context.
No problem, I thought it was directed at me for saying in the shoutbox that compiling an impressive stat resume doesnt neccesarily indicate a player is clutch. Those are two distinctly different things.
yes, I am being sarcastic. haha. come on. Its no fun if I have to say, Yes I am being sarcastic.
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Lifelongmetsfan says:
May 4, 2011 at 8:04 am
What is a “compiler?”
Reply
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Sach says:
May 4, 2011 at 8:17 am
A compiler is a player that pads his stats in low leverage situations and against meh pitching.
Reply
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Lifelongmetsfan says:
May 4, 2011 at 8:22 am
Boy that Alex Rodriquez is quite the “compiler” no way I want him on my team!
Man, that Adrian Gonzalez; is he a great “compiler” or what? No wonder the Mets made no effort to trade for him.
Cliff Lee. Who does he think he is “compiling” all those great pitching stats! What a loser!
Babe Ruth, now there was a “compiler” for you!
Yeah, we don’t want “compilers” on the Mets. Lets stick with the Harristons, Josh Thole’s and Daniel Murphy’s of the world. I don’t think any of these players are in danger of “compiling” statistics.
Reply
Not understanding the compiler line either, who with good numbers is not a compiler. Thats what baseball stats are
The only winner in this mess will be Jose Reyes. He will ge a well deserved contract that will make him rich and he will play for a team that will want him and appreciate him for his many. many talents.
As for the Mets they will get some schleps that probably wont ever make it to the majors while Reyes goes on to become one of the leagues best players and will probably get plenty of post season play unlike his compadre David Wright.
If any of you believe that horse manure coming out of Alderson’s mouth about how the $60 million coming off the books will get him more flexibility, you are as mad as a hatter.
This is the new Moneyball Mets, less money for payroll, less wins, less star players, more walks.
I say if you have to sell anyone sell Beltran if possible. And he is playing well as of this moment. And the big one I’d let go if I had to let anyone go would be Wright. Yes I said it David Wright. You know he’s a great defender, but in the last couple of years we’ve made every exscuse in the world for his bad at bats. He use to be exciting to watch at the plate because he was so clutch. Now, although he still hits almost 30 homers and 100 rbi’s it doesn’t seem to serve the team when needed. More serving his own personal record. Don’t get me wrong I’m a huge David Wright fan but think about it, how often has he been in the rallies to win games or had any cluch hits when needed. I hardley even hear his name this year at all. More Davis, Rayes, Murphy, Beltran, Thole. But not alot of did u see what “Wright did at the plate last night”???
You’re a huge David Wright fan, you just think he’s selfish and greedy. OK.
By the way, why do you say he’s not clutch? Because your flawed human memory says so?
He lead off the 9th inning of a tied game with a double recently. Very recently. Why is that getting dismissed?
1st off, if you can’t address my comment like an adult with a little respect I’d appriciate it if you just didn’t reply at all. I believe I have the right to make an opinion on this page without the hostility. Maybe I’m wrong? I have no comment for you Donal.
There’s a mistake in this situation – we – the Mets Fans – want to send Fred and Jeffy Wilpon – not Jose Reyes. All Jose Reyes does is play and play hard, loves the Mets and loves the games.Fred and Jeffy on the other hand just love the $$$$$$$$$
No, I’m not serious and I’m bad with jokes.
This is my opinion – keep Jose Reyes at whatever cost – he’s a true lifelong Met and he really plays every game at the top of his ability. A fan favorite, too. So let’s just turn down any nifty offer from other teams. We love him and we want to keep him.
” the Mets, according to the New York-based source, have already decided to shop Reyes (and perhaps Carlos Beltran and David Wright) and will be looking to stockpile and rebuild with high-level prospects rather than established players anywhere near arbitration or free agency.”
Joel Sherman is a source now?
I think David Wright stays. He’s white, a New York City guy; and looks good on the front page of the Wilpon’s Program.
2011- 4th place
2012- NO Reyes, No Beltran, Santana??? 5th place
2013- Spent lots of money to sign Wright long term contract over the winter. Who says the Wilpon’s don’t care! No closer. 4th place
2014…….
What a surprise. Just another bad GM in a series of bad Mets GMs.
lol the guy’s been the GM for like six months and inherited a mess and has a world series and he’s a bad GM already because the Mets are a few games under .500 in May? hahahaha, you made a funny. keep um comin’.
you r a real loser. the mets are playing their worst fundamental baseball ever, your gm hired a mgr that could not coach little league. the pitchers he signed are all washed up has beens and now your money ball philosophy you bow too is going to get rid of one the crown jewels of the fan base and team. keep saying its only may it only june, the pitching is not there because nothing was done about it in the off season so nothing is changing a 4th place team at best and you said playoffs in the offseason when your god anderson was hired….lol so keep selling your apology tour bs because nobody is buying it and citi will remain a ghost town till real talent is brought in, not traded away, money ball will not work in ny.
Yeah he inherited a Mess which consists of David Wright, Carlos Beltran, Ike Davis, Jason Bay, Daniel Murphy, Jose Reyes and all the other guys who lead the team in hitting and fixed it with Three guys who together aren’t hitting more than .200!
You do know that inherit means don’t you?
You do know what a mess is don’t you?
Of course you do you do it in your pampers on a daily basis!
Metsie just look at the entire organization, not just two players he got with the owners checkbook who are now both past their prime, one #1 draft choice and two guys HE inherited.
One thing you and Omar have in common is you both believe that a whole team is made up of just six or eight guys.
I’m looking at an organization that had a lot of very good players and failed to get many more in the offseason.
I’m not saying Sandy has failed yet but you can’t say the team was a mess. Not when more than half your starters are playing good baseball!
We need Pitching! It really is all we are missing right now!
And put it this way if you think Omar’s problem was signing a bunch of hurt guys what do you call what Sandy did?
Lots of hurt guys who are trying to come back so whatever you think of what Omar did Sandy certainly hasn’t learned from that mistake, only difference is he didn’t pay much for it!
Where this team might be a REAL mess is if there is a firesale and all those players that are playing well now get traded.
THAT will be a mess, not inherited but created!
A lot of very good players?
Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Ike……uh, who else? And Beltran was expected to only be a part time player.
Omar committed 3/4 of a BILLION DOLLARS over 6 years. Sandy’s committed about 20 M in one year.
Not every year is there just anyone you could grab for your rotation. Vinny thinks we should have paid Harang double to come here. 7 Million instead of the 3.5 he got from his hometown Padres. A 4.37 ERA and less than 6 IP per start at 7 M? Young has a 1.88 ERA and has averaged six IP per start at a cost of 2M. Are you suggesting Alderson should be blamed for signing Young instead of Harang? Would you prefer Takahashi’s 6.59 ERA or Feliciano’s 0 IP in our bullpen? Bayonne wanted Wang. How would his zero innings pitched so far have helped us?
Tell you the truth the perfect guy for our rotation was available the off season before last. Joel Pinero. He wasn’t hurt, he signed for 2/16. He’s from PR so he would have had a much shorter flight home from NY so we wouldn’t have been at a hometown disadvantage. 23 starts 3.84 ERA last year, only one start so far this year but 7 IP 1 run and a GB rate of 55 and 53% which would play real well in CBP.
Not every need is available every off season and Alderson hasn’t had the Wilpon checkbook to work with like Minaya did and who’s to say anyone with any other options would even want to come here?
I don’t think Alderson can be held responsible for not building a credible rotation in one off season after all Minaya didn’t in six years.
I didn’t have a problem with signing Young, but I thought it was a bad idea to have BOTH young and Capuano in the rotation. I thought it was WAY too risky. I thought we would have been much better off with Harang because he was less of a risk, and he was a better pitcher than Capuano.
I also would have liked to have signed somebody like a Millwood on a minor league contract just incase somebody gets hurt, and there was some other guys like him that were available too, but I don’t remember their names right now.
As for Takahashi, yes, his stats are bad, but how many innings has he pitched? 10? He could have had one or two bad games and that inflated his stats, and since it’s so early, if he has a few good games in a row it will lower his numbers a lot. It’s so early that, he could possibly finish the year with an ERA under two…
We lost two very good LHRP’s from last year and didn’t replace them with anybody good. And there was plenty of LHRP’s available in the offseason too – the guy I wanted was Choate. It was a terrible idea to have only ONE lefty (who’s 38 year old) in the bullpen …and in this division with all the lefties in the Phillies lineup and the Braves with Mcann and Heyward.
As it turns out, getting Pinerio would have been a good move, but at the time when he was signed I thought his 09 season was a fluke.
Vinny, If we were going to pay double for Harang then what would have been left for Young or Capuano? Probably nothing. I feel very strongly that a large part of what they tried to do this off season was to get guys who would hopefully have good first half’s, then trade them for something we can use in a year or two and will have for 6-8 years. Right now Young must be looking somewhat interesting to someone and if Capuano put together 8-10 strong starts will do the same. Like you said it’s early. When he took over the team Beltran and Bay were questionable, Jose and K-Rod possibly moving on, our ace out for the year and the owners out of money. Do we once again put all our eggs in this year’s basket?
Now that teams are locking up or trading their best players before free agency your not going to be able to find everything you want or need. Most of what makes it to free agency is either very expensive or shopworn. That’s just the way it is. Nothing Alderson can do about it in one offseason.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking that every free agent is dying to come to a dysfunctional organization who’s best players are either hurt or drawing near to leaving for greener pastures.
The facts are we have no idea who Alderson spoke to and who he didn’t. He did sign about 10-12 players, had arbitration cases, rule 5 draft, learn something about the minors, move here, his Father, hire a manager, staff, scouts, development staff and it looks so far like he’s made the right call on Feliciano, Takahashi, Beato, Young, Castillo, Perez, Izzy and Bucholtz. Boyer, Emaus and Carrasco didn’t and got tossed but didn’t cost us prospects, draft choices, roster spots or a huge precentage of our payroll. The jury is still out on Harris, Hairston, Brydek and Hu. Time will tell but when your forced to shop at K-Mart you can’t complain about quality.
Pagan, Dickey and Pelfrey’s slow starts couldn’t really have been expected and arguably could have occurred last year just as easily as this one.
Having 20 M to spend is a far cry from 275 M as Omar did his first year and we never had a solid credible rotation in any of the 6 years he was here, in fact we really haven’t had on since the lat 80′s.
We have some fine pitching prospects. This is basically a good team with lousy pitching. For God’s sake please dont let Reyes or Wright go, and resign Beltran for next year. Im not sure about Thole and Murphy but let them play unless there’s someone better hiding somewhere. If the Wilpons cant handle this, then Selig needs to step in. He doesnt want to see the New York franchise suffer.
We should not be trading players off, we should be selling team to someone who can invest money.
if they are doing this just to dump 11 million this team is screwed, for a long time.
If more fans went to the game there would not be a need to pump personal money into the team.
If we want to keep these guys then we have to stop thinking a boycott is going to force the Wilpons to go, it will only make the players you like go.
If the comments above – those I largely agree with – are a sampling of Met fans responses when Reyes is traded or walks, it’s going to be very, very ugly in Met land.
I just read a similar post to this one on Mets Blog and I had to laugh when I say this comment by reg38 as the first one left.
This is the type of news that gets you excited about the future. Sandy is looking to bolster the farm and everyone is for sale.
Let the fire sale begin….in Sandy we trust.
Wow, In Sandy we trust? Oh brother.
WIll be hard to tune into Mets games w/ Reyes gone…if it comes to pass.
There are few Tom Seaver-types in our franchise’s history. I like to think of Reyes and Wright as lifelong Mets.
The selling of players for reduced payroll or “flexibility” as GMs like to say, is the activity of mid-market teams not a major-market team in NY. Moneyball works in Oakland not in NY. This is not a 3-5 year plan this is ten years plus of mediocre ball; not worth the price of admission. Losing Reyes or Wright or both will solidify the Wilpons as the worst owners ever in the history of Baseball.
Beltran’s stikeout in game 7 against the Cardinals will go down as the begining of the end…….
And this source says, “……” and that other source, yeah that really reliable source plus ESPN said it also that Jose Reyes is going to….. for……
How many more post are we going to have to read repeating the same ting over and over?
Teams trading for Mets are not going to give back top prospects unless this happens close to trading deadline and someone is a piece like Jose away from playoffs but most will want maybe him to sign an extension or else what we get back we would be better getting draft choices.
Homer Baily from Reds has not impressed me; he has pitched on and off for past 3 years and his apparent inconsistencies are not what Mets need.
I want Jose to stay a Met forever despite the team’s condition now, unless Jose and his agent get ridiculous knowing Mets financial situation, then he needs to be Met for life.
David Wright’s situation is a mystery to me, I’s sure I am not alone.
I know he got hit in head but that was two years ago and his continued ridiculous streaks are just annoying to most of us and Mets.
What is going on here; as pointed out many times David’s swing gets to be long instead of level straight through the ball. Why is still happening?
Of all hitters on Mets right now needing help, guidance, mental approach he is the one Mets hitting coach, still can’t remember his name, needs to wk with.
It is a shame that Jose got on base 6 times last night and only scored once, that’s right once and David came up, as he has this short season so far, and he has not delivered or struck out.
Hopefully next post on Jose will be that he and Mets have agreed to extension with 1 or 2 mutual reachable options depending on games played; which the most important one for both sides.
Jose needs to be a lifer, cut or trade elsewhere but no on Jose Reyes!
Seems the GM from SF vindicated your remarks Sarge!
Alderson went on a SF radio station and talked Reyes.
He said Reyes could be a very big part of the Mets future for a long time, depending on numbers. He said Reyes is a “joy to watch” and that the team has an ongoing interest in keeping him an NY Met.
Now, I fully expect all of this to be ignored and certain cavemen to keep referring to foot notes.
Hope he stays.
That says to me that he is less likely to trade reyes unless someone just offers a stupid amount of players back for him.
More likely is Sandy will let the season play out, offer arbitration so he is sure of getting two picks in return and then stay or go depends on how much!
Radio disk jockeys are hacks, especially when they toss softballs and let the interviewee control the flow of the interview.
Does anybody with half a brain expect Alderson to admit Reyes is on the block while the Mets struggle to get 15,000 people in their park for a game?
Is anybody really that dumb to believe Alderson would say anything but how much he loves Reyes?
If Alderson loved Reyes he would have already signed Reyes. Obviously he doesn’t love him.
What he loves is the OBP he believes he wont get from Reyes.
Incidentally, Joel Sherman is not he source, that’s just Donal deflecting as he usually does.
The article specifically states a MAJOR LEAGUE SOURCE and then says FROM NEW YORK. Go read it for yourselves. So we are talking about a Yankee source or a Mets source unless the Brooklyn Dodgers have been resurrected. It is not speculation, it is SOURCED and there is a big difference between the two.
Alderson said he has an ongoing interest to keep Reyes in NY, yet Reyes himself said he hasn’t discussed any extension and at this point he will just wait until after the season.
The only thing that is ongoing is attempt by some to try and sugarcoat what will be the harsh reality that Reyes will not be a Met in 2012.
There is nothing “ongoing”, Alderson chooses words that confuse and misdirect. He Said Reyes is a joy to watch, which could just as well mean he’d be a joy to watch in Philly or the Yankees. He is right, Reyes is a joy to watch.
Too bad Alderson wasnt asked about Reyes from a performance level? Or maybe they were asked ahead of time not to go there as is the case in most interviews where guidelines are drawn up.
It was nice having you Reyes, but all good things must come to an end.
“Radio disk jockeys are hacks, especially when they toss softballs and let the interviewee control the flow of the interview. ”
Won’t argue there.
“Does anybody with half a brain expect Alderson to admit Reyes is on the block while the Mets struggle to get 15,000 people in their park for a game?
Is anybody really that dumb to believe Alderson would say anything but how much he loves Reyes?”
You and your fellow cavemen who keep harping on “fottnotes”.
” Alderson loved Reyes he would have already signed Reyes. Obviously he doesn’t love him.”
Last I checked, Reyes is the other guy who has to sign the contract.
“What he loves is the OBP he believes he wont get from Reyes.”
Yes, he wants productivity from his players. That bastard.
“Incidentally, Joel Sherman is not he source, that’s just Donal deflecting as he usually does.
The article specifically states a MAJOR LEAGUE SOURCE and then says FROM NEW YORK. Go read it for yourselves. So we are talking about a Yankee source or a Mets source unless the Brooklyn Dodgers have been resurrected. It is not speculation, it is SOURCED and there is a big difference between the two. ”
It does not say a MLB, Mets, or Yankees source. It simply says a source in New York. I quoted it exactly. You suck at lying.
“Alderson said he has an ongoing interest to keep Reyes in NY, yet Reyes himself said he hasn’t discussed any extension and at this point he will just wait until after the season.”
Reyes said in February that he doesn’t want to talk about cotnract extensions to those reporters. He is one of those guys who went and did the revolutionary thing of hiring an agent to do the talking for him. Peter Greenburg has said publically that he is willing to talk extension during the season.
“The only thing that is ongoing is attempt by some to try and sugarcoat what will be the harsh reality that Reyes will not be a Met in 2012.”
Perhaps. But you don’t know that. You are just crank yand need to attack Alderson, who represents that oh so scary thing: change.
You should read the article carefully before you call someone a liar. We are all Mets fans.
With limited internal options available, the Giants are considering addressing their problems at shortstop via trade, and Jose Reyes of the Mets has been discussed as a possible solution, a major-league source told CSNBayArea.com on Tuesday.
Read more: Source: Giants have discussed trading for Reyes
Tune to SportsNet Central at 6, 10:30 and midnight on Comcast SportsNet Bay Area for more on this story
The Mets, according to the New York-based source, have already decided to shop Reyes (and perhaps Carlos Beltran and David Wright) and will be looking to stockpile and rebuild with high-level prospects rather than established players anywhere near arbitration or free agency.
Read more: Source: Giants have discussed trading for Reyes
Tune to SportsNet Central at 6, 10:30 and midnight on Comcast SportsNet Bay Area for more on this story
He’s a crappy Mets fan.
And I did read the soruce. Please point out where it says it came from MLB, the Mets or the Yankees.
All it says is New York based source.
All of this crap for a stupid joke.
I’m a crappy Mets fan? All you do is bad mouth the team. My problem is with the GM. Plus it turns out you cant read english even when people tell you it was an MLB source from NY. How many teams are in NY? Wow, what an idiot you are!
This all hurts my head. It’s worse than the moneyball argument. Everybod is wrong and yer all a bunch of idjits. No one said it was a team, just a source from NY. MLB has many offices and departments run from NY. It could have been a friggin mail clerk in the Chelsea Market. It’s speculation/rumor/whatever you want to call it. It ain’t true till it happens.
Agree with your MetManiac about SA just giving up his leverage with fans and other teams when it comes to Jose but the rumor mill, un-named sources, National writers for ESPN, MLB, etc just want to generate traffic to their sites, shows, etc but are re-gurgetating the same know issue.
I hope Jose is here, cause despite the problems with team I will watch just to see him play.
It is probably all a lot of hokum. But if you are a cold hearted general manager with a goal in mind, you might not wait. After all, he is playing fantastic, but you are one pulled muscle away from getting zero for him. When Jose gets hurt, he tends to stay hurt for a while. That would be the kiss of death on any deal. I think all of these guys are going to start worrying about getting traded. Remember: there haven’t been any Jose Reyes type talents on the WS winners I have watched for the last few years. You don’t have to have a Jose Reyes type player to win it all. You do have to have pitching. If he can get you that, you look for your offense elsewhere. The formula is get great pitching, have a serviceable offense, and take your chances.
Ok, so by this time, we have heard every single solution and everyone’s view on this Reyes situation. We know that our new front office looks deeply into Sabermetrics more than other things that fans think are important. We now know that there are many others on this shipping list of the new Mets. But if I can just say, shipping Reyes will be a HUGE blow to the Mets attendance, which already is horrible. Reyes brings people to the ballpark, his energy, his personality, and his LOVE for the fans of the Mets. Losing him will probably cause NO ONE to go to games, which sounds insane but I hope we don’t see that day. And with new reports saying that WRIGHT is being shipped, I had to vent. Has the front office lost their mind, losing Reyes is a blow, but losing Wright, that is a low blow. David Wright, not officially, but is the captain of this team, to the fans at least. He is everything we want in a ball player, and means everything to the fans. If the new office wants to completely revamp this team then he must understand what kind of message he is sending to the fans. I know we all want a championship in New York for the Mets, we have needed one ever since 2006, but the way the new front office is directing us, it looks like they are looking long term which does have it’s benefits, but losing all stars that we have will cause a rift in the fan base that will never be forgotten.
What I dont get is if they trade Beltran and K-rod at the all star break, which they will they will the team will shaving over 30 mil off payroll. Why cant they keep Reyes? If they have to trade Reyes also the Wilpons need to sell the team as they simply cant afford it anymore. This is NY not Kansas City!
What does geography have to do with this?
What law is there that a NY team has to have a $150 million payroll? Teams have won with considerably less and their fans can actually afford to see their games live.
So Donal- every time a contract expires the mets let there players walk. Fans wont show up if that is the case.
Did I say that? Really? Hmmm. You should quote where I said that.
donal.. how much is the front office paying you for your pathetic attempts at defending every damn thing they do? I hope you are getting more than free parking.
By “defending every damn thing they do”, you must mean “correcting people’s misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the facts”. Like I’m doing now.
And they offered me free access to Shake Shack, but I held out for Blue Smoke as well as the parking.
Normal behavior tells you that you build your team around your all stars players, and from there you get the talent necessary to become a winner. Is San Francisco is willing to trade for Reyes they are not going to give the Mets a player like Lincecum, they get someone like Reyes to make the team around Lincecum better, but not the Mets, they just want to give away their stars to start from nothing, and it will take another ten years before we become contenders. How do they expect the fans to keep going to the park, if the team the put together sucks?…
the front office has had there chances on landing good pitchers in the past 10 years or so so why haven’t they done it? getting rid of reyes is not the answer, throwing in the peoples team captain in wright is definitely not the answer. so now what? why are the fans the ones who suffer the most when we the fans could run this team better than any of those rich bastards who has forgotten this is a kids game. ticket prices are through the roof yet we manage to pay for them, concession stand prices are exaggerated yet we still manage to pay for them. now through in these rumors about trading our heroes what does the front office wants us to do? how many years more do we have to suffer before these morons get it right? i say if they don’t make the playoffs this year they should open up to the loyal fans and ask for advice since they can’t do it themselves. lets see if the front office has enough balls to listen to their fans and not listen to their wallets. after all if it wasn’t for loyal fans like myself, who has been there in 1986 when they won it all and has been going there since i was 5, this team wouldn’t have a true fan base, just a group of people who likes them if they win. so to the wilpons, sorry for the bernie madoof shit but dont go punish your loyal fans cause of this, go out there and keep your core and build around them. IF YOU BUILD IT (WITH YOUR FANS ADVICE) THEY WILL COME AND WIN!!!!!!
They have GOOD pitchers…What they have needed is a true ACE! and a guy at #2 who is close to being a real ACE!
Santana was it before he got hurt. but he was not enough.
You need two ACE type pitchers to win in this league. And they are hard to develop via the draft. Yankees have had the long successful run they have had by constantly going out and buying the best pitchers in the league or trading for them.
Phillies figured that out and did the same and look at where they are right now.
Giants made and won the WS largely on thier pitching and does anyone think Texas would have been there if Less wasn’t there pitching for them last year?
Texas was running away with that division long before Lee got there. And the Giants did build their pitching through the draft. Nothing is easy when it comes to the draft, but every other team in the division and most of the teams in the league have at least one ace-material pitcher they developed. Just not the Mets.