Comments on: Forward Progress: Johan Santana Throws From A Mound

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Sat, 14 May 2011 16:45:05 +0000

Russ, that stuff u must be smoking has got to be illegal! How can u expect more out of Santana than he gave in 2008 @ age 29 with a substantial lineup behind him that included healthy versions of Reyes,Beltran,Delgado with the possibility of “none of the above” being there and the liklihood of financial restictions eliminating the addition of any comprables, can a post 3 successive surgeries 33+ yr old Santana possibly be counted upon for better results? Take a deep “hit” before responding, u’ll need it! her’s a brief synopsis to consider
YEAR AGE SALARY GS WINS LOSSES ERA WHIP
2008 29 $19M 34 16 7 2.53 1.15
2009 30 $20m 25 13 9 3.13 1.21
2010 31 $21M 29 11 9 2.98 1.18
2011 32 $22.5M ? ? ? ? ?
2012 33 $24M ? ? ? ? ?
2013 34 $25.5M ? ? ? ? ?
2014 35 TBD* ? ? ? ? ?
*TBD, ’14 IS CLUB OPTION @ $25M OR $5.5M BUYOUT.
Unfortunately the only definitive stats in Santana’s future is the Kings’s ransom he is to be paid as it excalates along with his age the potentiality of his accomplishments following the same upward trend with considerably lesser talent in the lineup & bullpen is beyond reasonable for a siober mind! Is any one player worth allocvating a quarter of the entire payroll to? especially one with escalating costs & age with diminishing contributions in Wins & games affected.

By: Metsie

Metsie — Sat, 14 May 2011 16:38:50 +0000

62 I wasn’t even suggesting Santana was STILL an ACE…

Just pointing out that someone like him can help elevate a young staff by example.

What he is being paid is irrelevant at this point and keeping him will be based on his performance not his Salary.

And I disagree it’s unsustainable. We have no choice at this point he has his contract. Would I resign him? Only if the performance numbers say he is worth it!

If not then spend it on the guy that DOES still have the ACE numbers and get it from him!

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Sat, 14 May 2011 16:20:03 +0000

Metsie, ALL that u say Re. Santana’s leadership is undeniably true; however it’s pricetag is well beyond sustainable. Izzy’s pricetag for leadership is not only reasonable; it includes superior on field results, apparently not included with the Santana pkg. as he has yet to deliver $20M in results let alone the 24M,25.5M worth to be delivered @ age 33 & 34 respectively. post more scars than Chucky

By: Metsie

Metsie — Fri, 13 May 2011 16:03:31 +0000

You can’t rely on the kids to be your ace. You hope they become one but you still need an Ace on the mound to show them what an Ace does!

Santana was an Ace and when he has been around the pitching has been good.
When he has been Hurt the Pitching has always sufferred!

This is why I yell at those who downplay or deny LEADERSHIP as a quality that needs to be measured.

And ACE gives you that pitching leadership! Collins said that having Izzy in the Pen has added some Veteran leadership to that PEN and they have been very good since Izzy got in that pen! He provides a proper leadership which before consisted of the MOODY and ALOOF K-Rod!

We need a leader like that for the Starters here when those kids come up!
So when those guys are ready to be promoted we need to have a guy to show them what a successful starting pitcher looks like on the mound.

Sadly that guy won’t be Santana!

By: metsaddict77

metsaddict77 — Fri, 13 May 2011 13:22:43 +0000

what difference does it make in the long run?there is going to be no mlb calibur players left on the team by the end of this year and next, there’s no sense in having him play with a bunch of minor leagers.we should just trade him try to get something in return.

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:46:03 +0000

Hitter, highest prices are paid @ the deadlines by contenders in danger of being squeezed out of the poastseason. If he cobbles together 2 ot 3 decent starts without any setbacks by 7/31; I’d deal him even across town to those extremely desperate pinstripers if they gave me what I wanted off their top shelf of farm produce. We at least owe Johan a shot at success & as a #3 for NYY he’d get it. Cashman would have the added impetus of quieting his critics for not pulling the trigger by trumping Omar’s offer to Mn; but I’d need that kid in AA & maybe Montero. Neither could I get in an offseason when they still belive in what they have; but now that Hughes is morphing into Joba & their backend is looking as if it’ll be Garcia, the FATMAN Colon & Millwood, the time may be right to succomb to the humiliation getting the entire 55M min to 74.5M maximum remaining 2-3 seasons assumed by “The Bronx”(diff is the 2014 option of $25M with it’s 5.5M buyout price)
To date, the single area where we’ve been financially spared by this Jeff Wilpon negotiated backloaded 6 yr. contract is that barely any performance bonuses have been earned. However, commencing in 2015 we’ll be liable to begin the repaying of the annual deferred $5M+ 1.25% compound interest salary that becomes due 7 yrs after it was earned. Unfortunately that’s sunk cost as in Titanicly expensive under present Madoff-Picard environement as money to be paid annually betwen 2015 & 7 yrs after the yr he’s dealt, with his permission, to override the FULL NO TRADE he was issued. Receiving team would only be liable for that paymrnt due 7 yrs from those seasons they had him payrolled 12-13/14?+7 = 2019-2021? BTW, the deferred alary was accrured properly; but unfortunately the escrow accounts it was housed in were part of the Madoff portfolio & is thus nrely due debts.
Hitter, if u calculate it out from 2008 through present we’ve paid $82.5M for the ‘appearance’ of having a stud ACE while only neting a grand total of 40Ws(16+13+11 in ’08.’09,’10 respectively) over the 4 yrs paid for. Surely 2+M/GS is a price no longer sustainable even in NYC for Union wotk no less.(LOL)

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:05:08 +0000

U know something Sat? The beauty of life is that it’s forever changing, pitchers/players in the moniors learn & develop eventually becoming MLBers while Holt & Mejia have at least shown the essence of capability.(at one time Koufax was considered questionable see early control issues) Think of it as changing your entire wardrobe, it’s unlikely u’d go out and purchase ALL that u need to get through an entire year all at once. perhaps u start by buying the best suit u can afford. certainly without socks,shoes,tie,underwear you’d appear unready; but as time proceeds u acquire those items as u can until fully haberdashered;b you get a call to appear in public, while festooned in your new finest, perhaps with a stubborn cowlick present there will be those critics over unkept hair.
Rammer, Mejia & Holt are still building their necessary wardrobes & if Gee’s appearance is any indication, could the cover of GQ be that far out of sight?

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:16:01 +0000

Russ, don’t look noew; but Santana’s 30+, odds that after 3 yrs & 3 surgeries of his improving are slim to none & slim was in Perez’ backpocket as he left town.
I really don’t know if it’s because of his decline in velocity shortening the velocity gap between his heater & change that’s the cause or if his Minn training of “dominating” IN the zone, NOT “gaming/tantalizing” around it or a combination of both; but u really need to remember that “run support” is a crutch of the journeyman; not THE ACE. Aces are, by definition, supposed to overcome,overendure their mound opponents by dealing at least 1 more zero than they can, see Pedro(prime), Doc(the orig Gooden) & the creative import from Canada of course there’s HOFers Seaver,Gibson and others. Aces are also supposed to have that little extra needed to put your key rivals in their place, from the get go, Atlanta has ‘owned’ Johan, Phls have learned he can’t handle their LHH effectively. his 2 biggest blowouts were orchestrated by rivals PHL & NYY not ACEish at all.
Russ, total up his NDs as a NYM; the total is anemic.
Bt no means do I mean to denigrate Johan’s soul or spirit as an ultimate Warrior; however too often it appears that while his mind is stong & willing, his body(arm) is in Judas mode. I fear that he will never present accomplishments equivilent to attaining more than a 15-17W season. Depite having the most potent lineup behind him he may ever expect to get in Flushing with healthy Reyes,Beltran,Delgado in their top forms he failed to exceed 16Ws how can he be expected after 3 surgeries & 3 yrs older to do better with Tejada, Pagan & Davis carrying his water instead? Russ, while it’s quite unfortunate as well as greatly disaPPOINTING, I BELIEVE ALDERSON SHOULD ATTEMPT TO DEAL SANTANA’S ONEROUSLY OVERBLOWN CONTRACT WITH IT’S REMAINING 60+M DUE as soon as logically possible. Does a non-contending, competitive team need a $25M/Yr SP contibuting 15-17 Ws?

By: Russell Zanca

Russell Zanca — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:52:19 +0000

Simple: I don’t think we failed to make the playoffs in ’08 or ’09 b/c of Santana, but despite his excellent efforts.

How many times did we lose b/c the man never had run support? Marinez and Glavine comparatively speaking, were never at his level.

The other night Ron Darling said, “When Santana pitches, your team always has a chance to win; he almost never throws a stinker, and on the off occasions when he isn’t pitching well he gives everything to keep the team as close as possible.”
That’s the “warrior” side of him.

His value is that you know you have that one guy in the starting rotation who is elite, and who will, more than likely, stymie the opposition.

Having said this, it’s also true that he was rarely as dominating as we thought he would be, given his best years in MN. He’s pretty much been injury-plagued since 2009, and this is why I think we’ve seen his best.

By: Hitman

Hitman — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:43:12 +0000

I agree with you 100% lifelong. Should Santana return and show flashes of his former self at the end of the year, deal him for starting pitching (depth) during the offseason.

By: Des

Des — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:31:48 +0000

“HAVE WE EVER SEEN “THE REAL” JOHAN? THE ONE WE THOUGHT WE WERE ADDING?”

Short answer is NO.

By: Des

Des — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:30:00 +0000

“Greater value than Petey or Glavine. . . ”

Russell, I share your hopes but my mind, or whatever is left of it after the start of this season, tells me otherwise. Please help me understand what you mean by value. Seems to me Johan gave us less value when measured by his contract cost.

By: Des

Des — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:24:33 +0000

Mejia had a rough start yesterday and didn’t look ready for the big time. His curveball was pretty good but he’s still short of good command. I saw some of it on MiLB.

By: Russell Zanca

Russell Zanca — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 17:47:57 +0000

Others are right: The Johan Era is over.

Hope to hell I’m wrong, but he will prove a colossal bust in the annals of famed Mets ace pitching. Greater value than Petey or Glavine, for sure, but just not the Seaveresque-Goodenesque guy we dreamed he might be.

Oh, well.

Still, if he becomes effective for 2012 will still be great to see him as part of a better rotation.

By: Satish Ram

Satish Ram — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:09:34 +0000

I always thought Meija and Holt had more bullpen stuff than starting pitcher stuff. Of course, I’ve never really seen them start, so I can’t make that statement outright, but it’s just a feeling. Two guys who live by their fastball and have questionable breaking pitches, you know?

I’m worried about our farm system and the amount of arms it can produce.

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:45:24 +0000

Rammer, not likely to happen; better we look within and prepare for the progression of Mejia(AAA), Holt(AA), Harvey(A) to join Pelfrey, Niese, Gee as Johan exits the stage at the end of his contract in a couple of yrs. With finances appearing slim, ownership hovering around ‘stretched beyond reason’. We’ve hired the best “getting by” GM available who’ll certainly need to convince his bosses to forego slots to rebuild with a plan from within whereby past budget incxreases were instantly earmarked for the FA market shopping sprees, future ones will need dedication to accomodate back loaded contract increases(Bay, Santana) with undoubted significant increases accounted for by larger amateur drafting costs as well as significant inflation applied to amateur scouting budget both foreign & domestic.

Historically, it’s best to teach winning on the farm whereby belief in coming from behind & withstanding & overcoming occasional onslaughts beconme second natured givens. Just as prior to the 80s NYM affiliates maintained penthouse suites in their respective stasndings. That’s a hidden problem these past decades. Future pro signings most likely resemble those of Dickey,Capuano, Young, Harris, Hairston as placeholders for internal inheritors rather than investing in named solutions for careerlong spans(Beltran,Santana).

By: Satish Ram

Satish Ram — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:25:56 +0000

Agreed.

Which means we should be looking into getting a second ace or a new ace, depending on how you want to look at it…

By: metsaddict77

metsaddict77 — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:21:10 +0000

@lifelong,that’s my mindset.

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:59:40 +0000

DES, HAVE WE EVER SEEN “THE REAL” JOHAN? THE ONE WE THOUGHT WE WERE ADDING, WHO AMAssed a very dominating record Vs. NL clubs? The Johan who struck fear into opponents not salivation at the prospect of facing him?

As, I personally believe despite his Warrior mindset, his frailty has deceived & betrayed him, whereby we’ve been sinmilarly distracted from his inabilities & remaining capabilities by this red herring run support issue. ACES pitch to scoreboards & post Ws or NDs despite their opponent’s stifling of his team’s bats.
an apex of a mere 16Ws certainly isn’;t viable @ $25M per and the $60+M still due as his offenseive surroundings are less likely to outmuscle,perform better than who was at his back in ’08 healthy Reyes,Delgado,Beltran. without whom his future support does not seem likely more productive nor proficient.

Shoulder repairs? slow & steady over pressing & hectic out of desperation.
As long as he’s still throwing he’s still progressing!

By: Lifelongmetdfan

Lifelongmetdfan — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 13:53:27 +0000

We need to think beyond Santana. If and when Santana comes back in 2012 he is coining back to “help” as opposed to “lead the way.” Think beyond Santana……..