24
2011
$100 Million Men: A Look Back
An article by 
Yesterday our own Craig Lerner posted a quote from WFAN’s Mike Francesa about Jose Reyes which was
“Jose Reyes sat right there in that chair and looked me in the eye and told me he was looking for the same deal Carl Crawford signed. He sat right there in that chair. He said it on the air loud and clear, that he expects to get paid like Carl Crawford. This isn’t speculation, this isn’t from some blogger, this is from Jose Reyes himself who sat right there and said it to me. Now, is he gonna get a Carl Crawford type deal?”
Now, I along with others have been searching long and hard for this quote. I can’t find it. Reyes was in studio with Francesa in December 2009, a full year prior to Crawford’s deal. The only time I know of that Francesa spoke with Reyes on the air, was down at Spring Training.
During that interview, Crawford’s name was never mentioned. I called the show, and had a nice chat with Mike (as I always do when I call), and he said Reyes said it on the air. I asked if his team could pull the audio, and it was danced around.
Look, I think the idea of “wanting Crawford money,” is speculation that has grown legs but never spoken by Reyes or his agent publically. I don’t think that makes it wrong though. I doubt Fred Wilpon would say that during an interview, if the idea of those figures was not mentioned by Reyes or his agent at some point.
Here’s the thing, whether Reyes gets $100million, or an insane $142million deal, any way you slice it, it’s a mistake. Heck, Crawford’s contract is a mistake in my estimation, so following suit would make no sense to me.
What you have to admit is that the Mets are in a financial struggle right now. So much is up in the air until this court case is settled, and so an investment of $100million+ in Jose Reyes to me isn’t a good idea if the Mets weren’t being sued, which makes it an even worse idea now.
Ignore for a second the fact we all in some way love watching Reyes play. We should, he’s an electric player. But the odds are not in the Mets favor for a 6 or 7 year deal worth over $100million to work for them.
The list of $100million contracts signed in Major League baseball is growing every year, and every year it seems as though it proves to be a mistake.
Carlos Lee signed a 6 year, $100million in November of 2006. Lee was 31 years old and halfway through his contract he started to hit a drastic decline. Since 2010, Lee is not the player the Astros signed. Fail.
In the winter of 2004, Albert Pujols avoided arbitration with St. Louis and signed a 7 year deal worth $100million. I’d say without a doubt this contract paid off. However, will his next one pay off? Not sure yet.
Prior to the 1999 season, Kevin Brown signed a 7 year, $105million deal with the LA Dodgers. He was 34 years old, and just like Carlos Lee he started to hit his decline about 3 years into the deal. (Please note, no accusations but baseball was a little different in 1999 for 30+ year old players.)
Prior to the 2000 season, the Reds inked Ken Griffey Jr at 30 years old to a 9 year deal worth $116million. While there was some excitement in Cincinnati, I think it’s safe to say in terms of playing time, Griffey’s contract was a mistake.
In January of 2005, Carlos Beltran signed a 7 year, $119million contract with the NY Mets. He’d turn 28 early that year. Beltran as you may have heard likely earned this deal due to an amazing playoff run with Houston. If Beltran swings and a positive outcome occurs versus Wainwright, we look at this contract differently.
However, consider the fact Beltran’s best regular season came as a Met in 2006. Makes it hard to justify why he deserved such a massive contract. 4 years into the deal, I’m sure the Mets regretted the contract.
Just this past winter, Cliff Lee signed a 5 year deal worth $120million. At age 32, you can make a serious case for this contract to be too much. The issue with Lee is really he is paid to perform in October. Realistically he hasn’t been a dominant regular season pitcher other than his Cy Young season, so we’ll have to see if the Phillies win a World Series under this contract.
In January of 2010, Matt Holliday signed a 7 year, $120million deal with the Cardinals. Many have their doubts that Holliday was worth such a contract, but the justification was that he’d protect Pujols. Now, it appears his contract could be the cause for the Cardinals not being able to give Albert what he wants. However, to be fair, he as performed very nicely for them in his first few years under contract.
Prior to the 2002 season, the Yankees signed 31 year old Jason Giambi to a 7 year, $120million contract. Giambi would have 2 maybe 3 MVP caliber seasons under this contract, but for the most part it turned out to be a failure.
Following the Mets World Series appearance, Mike Hampton at 28 years old left New York to join Colorado for 8 years, $121million. I’m sure you know, but in case you don’t. This was a failure.
In April of 2010, Ryan Howard signed an extension with the Phillies for $125million over 5 years. This was 2 years after Howard helped the Phillies win the World Series. Howard was 30 years old, and following that contract he would have his worst full season as a big leaguer. Currently, he’s still a force but in no way has he been the 2006-2008 version of himself.
Just this past winter, Jayson Werth signed a 7 year $126million deal with the Washington Nationals. Many of Werth’s critics suggest his numbers were padded due to the park he played in, but also the lineup around him. At 32 years old, Werth has yet to really earn this deal, as he seems to have reverted back to his Dodger Days.
December of 2006, Barry Zito crossed the Bay Bridge and headed to San Francisco and thankfully, not New York. He signed a 7 year, $126million contract and the Giants have regretted it every day since. Zito hasn’t had a winning record since joining the Giants.
November of 2006, Alfonso Soriano would turn 31 and join the Chicago Cubs. To do so, he’d get paid $136million for 8 years. Prior to that, he had won 2 Silver Slugger Awards. Since then he’s won none. He’s never cracked 80 RBI for Chicago, and prior to that he had done so for 5 straight years. In fact prior to that he cracked 90+ for five straight years.
In February of 2008, the Mets traded for and then signed Johan Santana. Santana was seen as the missing piece to a championship caliber team. At 29 years old, he’s sign a 6 year, $137million deal. While it was a great trade, to date the contract has not worked out in the Mets favor. For the 3rd year in a row, Santana will not crack 30 starts. His strikeouts have drastically dropped since pre-2009.
The one everybody compares Reyes to; Carl Crawford signed a 7 year deal worth $142million at age 29. Crawford, like Reyes does most of his damage when he’s on base. To date, that has been a struggle. Regardless of his current statistics, you won’t find many people out there that think this contract was a great idea.
In March of 2001, the Colorado Rockies signed their franchise player Todd Helton to a 9 year deal worth $141million. Helton was 27 at the time of the deal, and while the Rockies ended up getting to the World Series several years later, this contract wasn’t the best move. Granted, Helton has had a great career, but his numbers were never the same after the 2004 season.
After acquiring Miguel Cabrera in a trade prior to the 2008 season, the Tigers inked him to an 8 year deal worth $152million. I’m a big Cabrera fan, but his off the field antics may be the reason why the Tigers regret this deal. However, to date, Cabrera has been one of the best hitters in the league.
This past winter, the Red Sox acquired Adrian Gonzalez and in early April they signed him to an extension for 7 years worth $154million. AGone is 29 years old, and this contract really depends on if the Red Sox can win a World Series within 3 years. He’s a great hitter, too early to tell if this contract works or not.
This past November, Troy Tulowitzki signed a 10 year deal with the Rockies worth $157million. I think Tulo is a great player, but that great? He is only 26 years old, so he’s still within the prime of his career which is a positive for this contract. However, Tulo has never put up a season comparable to say Ryan Howard. Tulo is a rare power threat at SS and the team’s leader though.
Prior to the 2001 season, 29 year old Manny Ramirez would sign an 8 year deal worth $160million with the Boston Red Sox. We can all make allegations of steroid use; we don’t know what took place earlier on. What we do know is that the Red Sox won 2 World Series’ during this contract.
In December of 2008, the Yankees outbid themselves to sign the 28 year old C.C. Sabathia to a 7 year contract worth $161million with options galore involved. Hard to argue against the deal so far considering they won a World Series and many believed Sabathia could have won the Cy Young last year.
That same winter the Yankees signed 29 year old Mark Teixeira to an 8 year, $180million contract. They won the World Series that season. Tex has had a great career, but his best year with the Yankees would have been this 4th maybe 5th best in his career.
28 year old Joe Mauer is the face of the Twins franchise, and because of that he was signed to an 8 year, $184million contract. This will be the first season that contract would kick in, and to date he’s appeared in 9 games.
In February of 2001, 27 year old Derek Jeter avoided arbitration and signed a 10 year deal worth $189million. Since then Jeter has cemented his spot in the Hall of Fame. Realistically he’s never had a regular season that would justify this contract.
Then of course lastly, Alex Rodriguez. The king of all contracts. In December of 2000 he signed a 10 year, $252 million deal with the Texas Rangers. He was then traded to the Yankees, and would later opt out of his deal after the 2007 season. He then signed a 10 year deal worth $275million. Not bad A-Rod.
There you have it, the list of the $100million players in the history of the sport. Things you may notice.
*More often than not, they turn out to be a mistake.
*Players often hit a decline within 3-4 years of the contract’s original signing.
*Players who sign with their original team have done so at an earlier age.
*In most cases when players sign with their original team, it’s done so before their final year.
*The only two players on this list who relied on speed as a part of their game were Carlos Beltran, Alfonso Soriano and Carl Crawford. 2 out of 3 have proven that legs don’t get better with age. We’re waiting on Carl.
So while I enjoy seeing Reyes play SS for the Mets, the proof is there that a long-term $100million+ deal will not work out for the Mets in the long run.
When you sign Jose Reyes to a contract, you have to do it using the last 4 years of his career and project what the next 5-7 will look like. You can’t do it because he’s been red hot prior to Memorial Day.
Many organizations around the league use 100 pitches as their stopping point for a pitcher. I think they need to start considering 100 million as their stopping point for contracts because it usually doesn’t work out.
I enjoy watching Reyes play more than any other Mets player, and hope wherever he goes that he has success. I just firmly believe without a shadow of a doubt that signing him to a long-term $100+ million contract will not turn out good for the NY Mets.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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I think Francesa’s lying to protect Wilpon. That said, it doesn’t matter if Reyes wants “Crawford money” or not (who can blame him?), it’s that Wilpon inferred he wasn’t worth it. Maybe not, but I don’t understand the rationale for devaluing your franchise’s assets. It was simply a horrible business decision.
Metlo: To be fair, I’ve heard Francesa on more than 1 occasion say Reyes told him that. And those times were prior to this article being leaked. So I’m not sure how he’d be protecting Wilpon during those times.
Funny maniac since there have been scores and scores of posts here and other Met sites blasting Mike for hating on the Mets. Now he suddenly is a protector of the Wilpon? Wake up. It don’t work both ways.
6 years and 99 million. is that fine with you jesseP???
If Reyes would accept 5/100 he can come back around again at just 32 years of age. A risk, a gamble but with a 5/100 guarantee a risk he can easily assume.
You have to balance what Tejada would give us at SS over that time frame. What is your projection? What is Reyes? How much do you value that difference in offense and defense that Reyes provides. In what other ways could that 17M per year average be utilized?
A frontline starter + Tejada instead of Reyes? That depends on the starter. Teams are not letting their best players get to free agency without a fight. Lee and Tex were traded TWICE before they hit the market so it’s also the prospects given up for that starting pitcher.
I don’t know. Prospects (or a draft pick) for an iffy 14 M dollar starting pitcher w/a decrease in offense and defense at SS.
Or could it be an upgrade of three 4.5M dollar players, or money spent in the IFA market/draft.
What could he bring in prospects? Two picks? Can we suffer the loss in offensive firepower of Beltran and Reyes in the same year without up grading elsewhere?
All in all I consider the 5/100 to be in everyone’s best interest. Reyes is no more an injury candidate than any other SS. There is also no guarantee that Tejada may not get hurt on opening day 2012 and we then get to watch Hu all season.
There really is less risk in signing Reyes than counting on what we get in a trade or even the draft choices. Reyes is a known commodity coming into his peak years right now. If he did sign for 5 years he would have absolutely every incentive to come back around at age 32 for 2016 dollars.
I’d listen closely to everyone. I’d take a look at the projected 2012 draft and where we would likely draft and who might sign him. But I’ll tell you the truth. If we don’t sign him its going to be LAA, SF, SEA, BOS, PHIL, NYY. That means a first rounder somewhere between 20-30 and a supp around 33.
What does the 2012 draft look like? I’ll bet weak. I think this years draft is strong because of players coming out in fear of the collective bargaining agreement not being as good after 2011.
Barring being blown away I’d go the safe route. I’d sign him for 5 years, give him all the extras too. No trade, no plan A arb, OR opt out after 3 years. Anything. He’s a lot more of a sure thing than anything else out there.
look, this is a nice article, but baseball players are looking for the most money to retire at the end and no worried about money. few players justify their contracts, only imo manny, pujols and arod were worth the money they got paid, because they produce troughout the whole contract. manny brought in 2 championships to boston, pujols, well, he’s pujols, and arod brought 1 championship and 3 mvps, other than that no one is, but reyes may be looking for the biggest money they offer him, who cares 3 years down the road if you add him to any team that’s playoff boung they’ll be WORLD SERIES contender automaticaly. can you imagine the yankees with reyes at the top next year, with jeter as a dh? that’s a scenario i can see. and for us mets fan, it will be a reality that once he’s gone, this team will be unwatchable, because nor david nor beltran bring the fans to a stop when they come to bat or are on base, they do it with reyes.
Alexander: 6yr/99m… I think we both know Reyes wouldn’t sign that. There’s no reason for him to avoid hitting the open market at this stage and you know he’ll get more than that.
As for your other comment. The Mets aren’t within 3 years of being a legitimate World Series contender. When you consider age+health how can you justify signing Reyes to a longterm deal other than you really like him?
It’s a baseball decision, not a fan decision. He may win a World Series with whoever he goes to next, and good for him. But he’s not on a team right now where he can make that type of difference.
So you just want to keep him, hold back the franchise from moving forward just so another team doesn’t sign him?
If the Mets signed Reyes to just $100m for 6 years, I’d bet anything that in 2014 or 2015 at the latest we’d be wondering if anybody would trade for Reyes to take the contract off our hands.
kinda like we be begging to take bay off our hand in just 1 1/2 year? or perez at 2nd year? or castillo at the 3rd?
look, bad contract happen, MOST of them dont fully work out, but if you get 4 or 5 good years out of 7 is a risk that i’m sure most GOOD GM’s are willing to take, and my money is on reyes getting 6 or 7 years from a team he will probably win the WS. whether is the mets or another team, he’s that much of a different maker, if you don’t believ me ask your boy david wright how much he missed reyes in 2009 when he wasn’t the leadoff hitter and had only 72 rbi’s.
Yes, that must be true. We have won the WS with Jose Reyes in our lineup. Not! You cannot make a statement like that. You cannot quantify it. Fact is, no one knows what will happen. 6 or 7 years for anyone is a bad idea
Does that mean we will win one faster without him?
Just because you haven’t won WITH him doesn’t mean he isn’t HELPING you to win one. Try replacing the guys who don’t help at all before the guys who do that cost a lot BECAUSE they do!
You don’t fix a bad team by replacing the few players you have that are good! You do by replacing the ones that are BAD and stop the good player from doing more good!
Again, I don’t really get how Wright is my boy. If he stays on this team to the day he’s a free agent, I’ll say the same thing. Don’t give him $100+m.
But, I think teams that would sign Reyes to a 6/7 year deal worth over $100m are in different financial situations than the Mets.
In all honesty, Reyes being in a contract year was bad luck but also good luck for the Mets. Bad luck because nobody could predict their $ problems. If this was 2 years ago he’d be signed probably. But good because maybe they can begin to focus on actually building a farm system that produces real big leaguers time and time again rather than fringe guys with 1 or 2 very good players if they are lucky.
I do remember the interview with Rayes and he was asked if he thought he could get Crawford Money?? He never said that he could, or was trying. He said it’ll be the 1st time he’ll be a free agent and he was excited about that. I also believe he said he truly wanted to stay a Met for life. He came up threw the system here and likes New York. Buuuutttt… We all know it’s a buisness. Maybe the Mets can tack on an extra yr. and backload the contract to make it appealing to him?? Just a thought. You know I was watching one of the games in April and they timed Rayes from Home to third on a triple and it took him under 11 seconds!!!! The boy still has his speed.
I don’t either, but if Mike said he said it, it must be true…NOT. He should replay his interview then with him. How many times has Mike said something and then said something else the next day or week.
I still dont see why a 5/85 or 5/90 deal cant be done. No where has it been said Jose wants Crawford money. That is media driven due to the fact their games are similiar.
I 100% agree with you that nowhere does it say that he wants that type of money.
However, let me ask you this follow up.
He’s not signing 5/85 or 5/90 on the open market. Agreed? I mean I can name at least 5 teams that SHOULD bid on him. If you concede that then
Then you’re assuming he’d take a home town discount and sign BEFORE the end of the year. And to that I ask, why would he?
What is in it for him to give the Mets a hometown discount unless he absolutely loves NY to the point that he doesn’t care about anything else which I highly doubt is true otherwise why have an agent?
You know what Reyes really wants? To stay a MET for life AND make as much money as possible doing it!
Hometown Discount? Depends on what you call a discount.
Reyes will test the market, see how high it goes, the Mets will top out at their highest and if it is close enough to not care (what is a loss of 3 or 4 Mil when your still getting 25 mil a year and don’t have to move?) about the extra money he will sign with us for a discount!
The per year money is irrelevant. Even a guy like Beltran at the end of his contract is cheaper when compared to the other guys who are just as good who signed more recently.
What IS more important is to be sure you CAN trade him mid contract if you want to.
Get the years you can and try to sell him before he starts losing whatever you paid for.
I know you think how much is too much for a free agent. to which i say, “They NEVER get CHEAPER!” If Reyes his good your going to pay more for that good in two years than you will now. And at least WITH him your one player closer to the goal and therefore with a little luck you contend a little quicker. Get rid of reyes and have the same luck with cheaper and you may be that ONE PLAYER short position, And by that time your Paying Tejada what you could have been paying Reyes. Same way we would now pay Reyes (or Crawford or Werth) what A-Rod is making on HIS long term contract.
The Money isn’t important spending less means less wins. Fewer Wins leads to less attendance, Less Attendance leads to Less Money to spend which eventually cycles you down to the Pirates! No one shows, no one wins, no way out!
Spending 25 Mil per year on a reyes may not add many wins all on it’s own, But if you do the same things you would do without him and do it with him then you will get where you want to be one player faster. And that could be a SEASON full of attendance which makes the money MOOT! You made it back in spades!
Being cheap is good business. But it is not good baseball.
Since there are no limits on what you can spend money is the only unlimited resource you can use.
the roster is the same for all teams.
The number of games you get to sell tickets to is the same for all teams.
The positions you need to have is the SAME for all teams.
The number of draft choices given is the same for ALL teams, How they spend those picks is not limited by anything but thier WIN/LOSS Record.
The way you can USE MONEY is also the SAME for every franchise!
So what is the only difference? HOW MUCH YOU HAVE! HOW MUCH can you generate!
And that all about how much and often you win!
It’s not important how much you paid PER win. Only thing that matters is how often you win!
Metsie: Where do I begin?
“You know what Reyes really wants? To stay a MET for life AND make as much money as possible doing it! Reyes will test the market, see how high it goes, the Mets will top out at their highest and if it is close enough to not care (what is a loss of 3 or 4 Mil when your still getting 25 mil a year and don’t have to move?) about the extra money he will sign with us for a discount!”
— You should be Reyes’ agent! Did you just casually suggest $25mil a year for Jose Reyes?
“What IS more important is to be sure you CAN trade him mid contract if you want to.”
—- Right! Because when Reyes signs his new deal, he’s not going to want a no-trade clause.
The rest of your rant goes on and on about how they should just keep spending, more and more. What does that solve? What is out there that turns this Mets team into a contender right away? You’re kidding yourself right now.
First off his agent isn’t going to have anything to do with what the Mets offer him….Only thing he can do is say yes or no the value will be based on what the Mets want to pay and all he can do is ask for more.
In regards to a no trade clause well if you want that I will pay you less because I can’t trade you. Again take it or leave it!
But if that TIOL number is only 2 or 3 mil away from the top offer, Then Reyes might take it if he TRULY wants to stay. I’m sure he wants to stay a Met for life…But it isn’t what is going to sway him on which offer to take.
But when your getting paid 25+ Mil per year it’s easy to walk away and give that 3 mil away to the team you really want to stay with. Small Change.
“The rest of your rant goes on and on about how they should just keep spending”
No that wasn’t it…You skimmed I guess…What I ranted was you don’t need to cut every pricey salary and buy cheap to rebuild a franchise. And if you don’t cheap out and sell of every good player you will rebuild FASTER because you started from a better place!
Money isn’t important, it isn’t your money anyway it is the Wilpons. ONLY JEFF should want to run our franchise that way so he might have enough of his inheritance left to never have to get a REAL JOB running something!
Metsie: You do understand what an agent’s job is don’t you? Because when you say “First off his agent isn’t going to have anything to do with what the Mets offer him”
You make me think you have no clue what an agent does. It’s the agents JOB to have something to do with what the Mets offer him. It’s his JOB to tell the Mets what his client wants and what his client is worth.
And again you keep throwing around “$25 mil” You understand it makes you look like you’re lost right?
You understand if Reyes made $25mil a year he’d be the 3rd highest paid player in baseball? If that is what it takes to sign Jose Reyes, then adios Jose.
And once again we are left to argue the causality of the situation.
Can the agent MAKE the Mets offer a certain number?
NO!
All he can do is accept their offer or someone else’s.
Sure he will TRY to get this and that and reyes agent isn’t getting anything for reyes that some team doesn’t offer him!
His agent could ask for 50 mil per…But he’s only going to get whatever the best off is at most, And if that MOST is not that far away from what the Mets are offering then he MIGHT give you the home team discount!
But he is not going to get ANY MORE than the highest offer made by a team.
Reyes is worth what that number is! You may not think so but if you went to SIGN ANOTHER PLAYER that gave ytou the same amount he WILL also get paid that much because THAT is the price now! Reyes is going to get MORE MONEY than Crawford if he is SIMILAR to crawford in the mind of teams, Reyes will get paid more than Crawford and whoever you sign that is just as good as Reyes will get MORE than reyes!
Thats the way the market works dude and if you don’t understand that then your the one who has no clue!
The TEAMS set the MARKET. ONCE SET, the market IS the market value! You want to play bargains thats another story, but those bargains had better replace all that good baseball you lost by being cheap! Igf it doesn’t you will pay 5 Mil more per year for whever you get AFTER Reyes because the MARKET was too high for when reyes was setting the mark!
It is the OBP guys the guys who use WAR which slants everything to favor OBP instead of batting turned a leadoff hitter (a once ROLE player) into a Superstar salary!
And Crawford made the price jump up for everyone who was looking for that. Reyes will jump it up just slightly again, Might as well get it while it is there now and have it as YOUR DISCOUNT 3 years from now when what Reyes would get you added another 10 Mil per year to get!
If you buy it makes DEVELOPING easier no need to rush anyone. You will make that money spent up in years where that developed and cheap talent make those big money contracts no longer needed.
Pass the Money from the old to the new and develop again!
What your going to spend on a particular type of player isn’t constant, each year a new guy like that gets paid as the highest paid blah blah blah every year!
The price always goes up! And what a Reyes will cost us this year will cost about 2 or 3 More the year after that! So what are you actually saving here? Nothing!
Metsie: “Can the agent MAKE the Mets offer a certain number?
NO! All he can do is accept their offer or someone else’s.”
I stopped here because you clearly have no idea what a sports agent does. You realize a guy like Scott Boras creates a portfolio for each of his players and presents his players case to MAKE a certain amount of money?
In what hole do you live that told you they just sit back, answer the phone and accept or deny an offer.
You think the Nationals just magically came up with Jayson Werth’s contract offer on their own?
My suggestion to you, is to read about what an agent does, specifically a sports agent and then come back to this conversation because you’re totally lost.
You stopped right there because you know an Agent can’t FORCE ANY team to sign his client…
He tried to sell A-RPD to us!
Did he?
Did his client come here?
no! HE WENT TO TEXAS!!! BIGGEST MISTAKE IN A-RODs life! He even said later he wished he had come to the METS!
Cause as much credit as you give to Boras, Boras couldn’t FORCE A-Rod preferred destination to offer up ANYTHING!
I know FULL WELL what the Agents job is…I also know Agents fail to get what they want ALL THE TIME!
Because they can’t FORCE a team to pay anything they aren’t willing to pay!
To be honest, before our “owner” opened his fat stupid mouth about him, I think if a 5/90 deal was offered, he’d take it. Now, i dont see him taking anything till he hits free agency, and that hometown discount is now gone. God I hate Fred.
Reyes didn’t have to say he wanted Crawford money….
The Entire WORLD assumed he would get whatever Crawford got even before he got it, and used Crawford’s contract as a barometer for players with those types of numbers!
So it really doesn’t matter what reyes said to anyone. He didn’t have to Carl Crawford and the Red Sox said thats how much a reyes is worth and will cost!
Worth? Disagree. Are you telling me if this was May 2010 you’d say he’s “worth” that $? How could you? You’re basing his “worth” on you liking him, and his 2011 season. He’s not “worth” Crawford money.
Are you trying to tell me Reyes to this point has proven to be a better player than Beltran or Soriano did when they signed their deals?
How could you?
See the problem is, you’re blinded by your love for Reyes and hatred for the management in NY. If you were being reasonable you’d agree that Reyes has done nothing in his career to warrant a massive contract. Nothing.
He’s never won a World Series,
he’s never won an MVP,
he’s never won a gold glove,
he’s never been a team leader
he’s won 1 silver slugger award *SIX* years ago.
He’s not the best at his position in baseball, and he’s never going to be the base stealer he was from 2005-2007. Proof? Now he’s “100%” healthy and he’s not on pace to break any of those SB totals. Speed declines with age.
What value does Reyes have when he’s 30 years old and stealing 25-30 bases max?
I’m convinced people with your line of thinking want to say they should sign Reyes just so you can complain when they don’t.
No I’m basing his worth on what the market is probably going to pay him not because I like him.
Players salaries are a product of the Market. The market says what a player is actually worth. wether he lives up to that expectation is moot because no matter what you pay him if he isn’t what you thought he was it’s wasted money.
Does the guy make it easier to get you to 90 Wins? Then he is probably worth the money that the market says he is worth. To get it from someone else is not saving you money as they likely cost as much, Only a developed kid would/could would be cheaper but unless you have him all ready to go to give you what you had your not going to get what you already get! Saved Money, lost wins!
To say a guy is not worth what the open market says he is, only works if you have some guideline as how much per win is correct.
But you can win no matter HOW MUCH the players make! Which makes it irrelevant!
And therefore there isn’t a player that isn’t getting what they are worth. Worth to YOU maybe but not someone else!
And the Someone else who has collected most of those NOT WORTH guys are the Yankees who have been to the WS 7 times and won 5 since 1995!
Crawford is a beast! only reason you say his deal is a mistake is because he is off to a cold start. But Crawford is a top 10 players and deserves the money. Reyes is not a great as Crawford but he is very very good. I think he will get 142 Million if he stays healthy and finishes off strong. The fact that he plays SS will get him the money.
Crawford is a Top 10 player?
Pujols, ARod, Hamilton, Votto, Miggy, AGone, Longoria, Mauer, Texiera, Tulo, Prince, stop me when I get to 10?
Oh…
Maybe he meant top ten leftfielder. lol
“Over the last two years, the only position players with a higher WAR than Crawford are Albert Pujols, Evan Longoria, Ryan Zimmerman, Joe Mauer, and Chase Utley. Crawford is ahead of sluggers like Adrian Gonzalez, Joey Votto, and Miguel Cabrera, but as we saw with Gonzalez’s extension, that kind of money for their skillset is considered acceptable. Just because Crawford creates wins in a different way doesn’t make those wins less valuable. If you buy into Crawford being an elite defender, then he is worth this contract, and maybe even a little bit more.”
A part of the reason Boston signed Crawford was to keep him away from likely playoff contender LAA or Division rival NYY as well as the fact that he was a better alternative to any FA replacement in 2012 for the impending loss of two OFers in Drew and Cameron.
Correct. A risk you can take when everybody and their mother pciks you to win the world series it seems.
A risk you don’t take when your owner is being sued, plus you are losing money with the team.
Why should you want to build a team thats best for a particular owner and not just focus on one thats best for the baseball.
No matter what DUMB reason you want to claim for the WHY the bottomline is they thought enough of him to pay him that amount AND have to play him!
If your already going to win a WS then how is it a risk at all?
And if your not going to win a WS what risk is there? The Owners financial condition?
DO you really care how poor Wilpon is? Is your goal to take care of him or to build a winning team?
See this is where I break away from sabermetrics and laugh when people on here call me a “saberhead” (whatever that is)
You’re using a stat to tell me that Carl Crawford is a better player than Joey Votto, Miguel Cabrera, Adrian Gonzalez, Alex Rodriguez, Josh Hamilton etc.
Carl Crawford plays Left Field. The same position players like Barry Bonds and Manny Ramirez were thrown into because defense in LF is not as important. So using his defensive ability as a reason why he’s more valuable than Alex Rodriguez is a joke.
I don’t need to come up with a stat like WAR to tell me who a better player is. You know darn well that Alex Rodriguez is a better player than Carl Crawford.
And the fact Chase Utley and Ryan Zimmerman are “top 5″ makes my point even further.
You value sluggers like AGon, Bonds, and Manny because their value is easily quantifiable by their HR and RBI numbers. Players’ who contributes value through their defense are overlooked because their are no conventional measures for defense. Crawford is one of the best defenders of this generation, and the fact that he plays LF doesn’t diminish his incredible range.
I didn’t bring up ARod because he’s past his prime and not a top 10 player. Of course Crawford will never match ARod’s best seasons.
Utley is similarly underrated because in addition to being the best hitting 2B from 2005 to 2009, he was also the best defender during that stretch. Zimmerman and Longoria are similar cases where their elite defense are overlooked.
So AGone and Texiera, their defense at 1B? Doesn’t count?
AGone is an average 1B, Texiera is above average which is why Tex’s best season (2008, his best defensively) is better than any of AGon’s.
yeah AGone’s only won 2 gold gloves.
So just so I’m clear. You’re telling me because of “WAR” that Carl Crawford is a better and more valuable player than Adrian Gonzalez, Mark Teixiera, Alex Rodriguez, Joey Votto and Miguel Cabrera.
And its because of Crawford’s “elite” LF defense that puts him over the top?
Yes because often times we hear about how every teams needs an elite fielding left fielder over a 40+HR 100+ RBI .900+ OPS hitter hmmm
Left Field is where teams hide poor defensive players. So having a great one doesn’t really do anything for me.
“Yes because often times we hear about how every teams needs an elite fielding left fielder over a 40+HR 100+ RBI .900+ OPS hitter hmmm
Left Field is where teams hide poor defensive players. So having a great one doesn’t really do anything for me.”
That’s just an old adage which happens to be a misconception. Lousy defenders in LF still costs their teams runs. Adam Dunn (your 40+HR 100+ RBI .900+ OPS hitter) has been a much better hitter over his career than Crawford but never came close to sniffing Crawford’s contract because he’s a horrible outfielder whose defense subtracts from his hitting. Obviously MLB teams also think Crawford’s defense puts him over the top.
Crawford is better because he bats over 300 steals over 55 bases, scores over 100 runs, hits over 15hr and drives in over 80rbi. he contributes in every offensive category. dude is a beast! Plus his defense…Arod used to be better than Crawford when he was younger and healthy and stealing bases along with providing power, but not anymore. Crawford is not top 10 he top 5 point blank period.
Here are the top 5 players in baseball: Pujols, Batista, Hanley, Cabrera, Crawford. Arod is not even top 15 anymore.
Crawford is so far out of the top 5, he’s looking up at at least 15 people. Pujols, Longoria, Holliday, Hanley, Mauer, Votto, Youkilis, A-Gon, Zimmerman and Braun are roughly the top 10. And there’s still more than five guys after that better than Crawford.
Obviously you are clueless about baseball jessep, because if you had any knowledge you would know that the young Barry Bonds was a great defensive left fielder. Lumping him with Manny shows you to just be a big mouth sopewing the words of the mass hysteria espn types. You have no argument because you have no knowledge.
Unless those wins are calculated by things not related to personal skill like RBOE…
An RBOE is weighted .92 in the War Metric. A Base hit? .9! You know what a Home Run Weighs? 1.95!
So guys like Crawford got paid the same as the best HR hitters all because if you RBOE 3 times or any combination of W,HBP,1B or RBOE) it’s as good AND BETTER as one HR! Two doubles are actually better than one HR.
Now you know why Crawford got stupid money!
And Why reyes will too!
This is why Moneyball the book doesn’t work…OBP isn’t undervalued anymore it is OVERVALUED!
Crawford is better than the following players you mentioned: ARod, Hamilton, Mauer, Texeira, Prince.
Just look at Crawford numbers. over 300AVG 17 plus HR 60 plus SB 80 plus rbi. great defensive player. Whole package. Now playing in Boston line up his numbers are going to be bananas. So yea top 10 player. By the way in fantasy draft this year he was selected 7th overall. Just saying.
fantasy average draft position for crawford was 7th. To me he is actually a top 5 players. Only players better than him are pujols, batista, hanley, and gonzales. that is it.
Carlos Beltran has been the most productive FA this franchise has ever had, just because he has not been worth the value of his salary the past 2 seasons due to injury doesn’t mean he hasn’t outproduced his contract. You could make similar arguments for Kevin Brown, who was one of the better pitchers in baseball for most of his Dodger seasons. When teams sign FA in their prime, they usually expect to receive surplus value at the beginning of the contract when the player is highly productive, and use that surplus value to cover for the loss in value at the end of the contract when the player is less productive. The GMs take that into account, otherwise there would be much less big contracts for FAs.
Injuries can derail any players’ career. Players whose game is based on speed usually age much better than slow footed sluggers because they are in great physical condition and thus are less likely to break down.
Also, it’s pointless to compare the offensive #’s of 1B and SS as you do with Howard vs. Tulo or Reyes. SS is premium defensive position and SS who hits like Tulo, Reyes, or Jeter are much hard to find than 1B that can hit like Howard. Just the fact that Tulo has about the same WAR as Howard in 320 less PAs shows how much better a player he is. ARod’s first 200M+ contract was actually a good deal because he was the best hitter in baseball while manning SS or 3B. The point is it’s incredibly hard to find a SS as good as Reyes, and for the Mets to become a contender you need to keep your best players and replace your worst. Letting go of Reyes because you think he’s will not be worth the money in 5 or 6 years is not a good idea.
Not to mention who is to blame for the year (singular across two seasons! not two years) of Carlos beltran? The guys who told him not to have surgery in September or Belran for saying It’s not better I’m getting it fixed?
If carlos had ignored the Mets and had it done right away he might have been back by May or June, If you give him two extra months of what he was doing in September, no one would be complaining about his knees at all.
So to blame Carlos for those two affected seasons because the team told him to not have surgery he needed is just plain old wrong.
Give Reyes 5 years and $85 million. Lets see if he takes it. If he does, great, if not trade him for top prospects.
Give him this deal??? Guess what he’s not Freddy’s slave.
Yes, according to sabermetricians beltran has outproduced his contract. But when someone signs a contract for 7 years, the idea is that he help his team every year. Just adding up a bunch of numbers and averaging them out does not get it done. Sure an injury can happen. A man misses most of one year. But when he leaves his team hanging 3 out of 7 (maybe 4 if he hits the DL again this year) then it just emphasizes the futility of long term contracts. It I have to give a guy 7 years just to sgn him, I go somewhere else. Nothing against Beltran. He is legitimately hurt. The point is that once youre committed, you cannot get a decent replacement when a guy breaks down long term (unless you are the Yankees). So in that sense, the team has not received full value. The team wants productive seasons, not total numbers.
So ask yourself, which is better? A guy who only plays 75 games and wins 20 for you or a guy who plays everyday costs nothing and doesn’t?
You can only value a player based on what he MIGHT do! This isn’t a pack of cigarettes that you KNOW your going to get 20 in a pack! This is performance based salary, HOW much not how often. It is a QUALITY puchase not a QUANTITY buy which is why everyone always comes up with these out of reality deals. They look at the Quantity but not the Quality.
#Mets crushed, on field and in spirit. Read all about the massacre and get the Outsider’s (and consensus) Opinion: http://tiny.cc/347md