19
2011
No Offense, No Defense, No Control, No Win. Mets Lose 6-1 To Astros.
An article by Former Writers
Game Summary
Niese had a decent short outing but walked a good amount of batters. Bullpen and offense lacked majorly. Mets lose another 6-1 to the Astros and take last place in the NL. Jason Bay returns tomorrow though!
Game Notes
Jon Niese must love to give batters a free base because he gave up five walks, something that has plagued Mets starters this season. Niese once again goes a short six innings, giving up two runs on seven hits, five walks, and struck out two. Once more, Mets starters can’t seem to make it far into games. Where’s Santana when you need him?
A variety of relievers were used today, including: Beato, Iggy, Byrdak, Parnell, and Buchholz. Totaling three innings, and four runs. Not a good thing when nothing was working for the Mets.
Speaking of nothing working…the offense totaled four hits against the Astros with the only one that mattered was Beltran’s third homerun on the season. Not a single Met starting batter is hitting over .300. Let’s hope Jason Bay can be a spark.
The defense was just horrendous for both teams. Errors, can’t turn two, can’t catch the ball, can’t hold onto the ball, no communication, can’t throw the ball. Just really sad. Turner especially couldn’t do anything on the defense side and only had one hit. Murphy anyone?
Turning Point
It was just a downhill event for the Mets
Game Ball
Beltran with a home run.
Up Next
Bud Norris and RA Dickey face each other in the second game against the Astros. Game time is 7:10 PM.
About the Author: Former Writers
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No Offense, No Defense, No Control, No Umpiring, No Win.
Terrible umpiring call at 2B on attempted double play by the Astros.
Perfect title dude. This team is toast.
Turning Point
“It was just a downhill event for the Mets”
LoL Good one.
Iceberg, right ahead!
Rrrrippp,cruinnckkkch, eeerghhhhrshhhcrak…
An iceberg, sir. I put a hard a’starboard on the engines, full astern, but it was too close. I tried to port ’round it, but she hit.
Close the watertight doors.
Excuse me, but why have the engines stopped? I felt a shudder.
You shouldn’t worry, madam. We’ve likely thrown a propeller blade, that’s the shudder you felt. May I bring you anything?
Water… fourteen feet above the keel in ten minutes. In the forepeak, in all three holds and in the boiler room six.
That’s five compartments! She can stay afloat with the first four compartments breached, but not five!
We are taking on water on a massive scale. Shall we begin to launch the lifeboats captain?
How much time?
An hour… two at most.
Yes, yes, prepare to abandon ship, women and children first of course. May God protect all of you. It’s in his hands now.
Get back, I say, or I’ll shoot you all like dogs! Keep order here! Keep order I say. Mr. Lowe, man this boat.
You can’t keep us locked up in here like animals – the ship’s bloody sinking!
One by one the band comes back and plays as the scenes change. when the tune finishes, the water is about to swallow them. Gentlemen. It has been a privilege playing with you tonight.
Aren’t you going to try and save yourself sir?
No… I’m sorry that I didn’t build you a stronger ship.
Yeah when you try to remodel a 130 million dollar dinosaur with parts off the scrap heap cause the prior ship yard put the hull in the aft and the starboard on the port what do you expect? Miracles in one off season? The Mets don’t play on 34th street. The next colossal titanic is set to sail into flushing to save the day tomorrow or the next day. Man what could have been done with 80 Million. We wouldn’t have had to swoop over the landfill all winter I know that.
u forget to mention the lower cargo hold where the wilponzie mobs profits reside!the good ship ponzie!
You say that yet the only guys who are performing were brought in by the guys you claim are idiots.
Look at the best players on this team right now the guys who are getting the job done and qualify your opinion of who made better choices and whose choices were the first ones to go so far this season.
So, 4 guys from the last 10 years are doing well this year and you are going after the guy who has less than 6 months on the job? He had to build his front office during a shallow free agent season. I won’t even address the perceived money problems.
What about all the under performers brought in by the pervious regimes who got to stick around? Is that better? Are you that big an Alex Cora fan?
donal, don’t tell me, you’re one of those”lives under a rock” guys in the GEICO commercial?
Which over the hill prior regime guys are u referring to as “sticking around”
BTW Cora’s donning a curly W on his hat as a Gnat. Tatis is most likely installing the pews he bought for his church. Valentin now owns his own Winterball team, Easley? u can’t mean Easley? Francoeur is presently preparing for his iminent induction to the “APRIL ONLY” HOF wing to be located in Bridgewater, NJ., Alou last appeared @ the cockfights alongside Pedro, GMJ? who knows,who cares? check with his dad in thr PHL broadcast booth GMJ may be their gopher. Jacobs, more than likely employed as GMJ’s gopher.
I meant those guys got to hang around under the previous regime.
D, as that administration was duly punished for it’s mistakes, it’s time to consider those things as presently meanuingless & Lord knows, we’ve got more current problems than anyone could adequately handle, do we really need more from the past, even recent past, if it isn’t still effecting play it shouldn’t matter anymore than trading Leroy Stanton & some promising pitching prospect for Jim Fregosi. Those that staved off their retirement clock by promising last gasps aplenty to the prior regime ARE ALL GONE!
’62, You forgot about Frankie Cats. Frankie Cat’s and the Deaftones are appearing nightly in Hoboken.
T? that’s ALL u got for me? I thought u’d love the April HOF reference I initially thought of when one of our peers created a posting lamenting Frebchie’s departure citing his current typical April heroics as his bona fides for keeping him rostered.
I didn’t go after the guy who has been on the job for 6 months I went after the guy who said the guy who brought in all the good players was an idiot!
Minaya didn’t bring in all the good players. Wright and Reyes were here.
Also, Beltran fell into his lap. The Yankees and Red Sox weren’t willing to commit the money to him at the time.
So, who did Minaya bring here? Ike? in 6 friggin years we have Ike to show for it?
Omar spent most of his time energy and resources on fixing THIS YEAR. Same thing that every Met GM under the Wilpon has done with the exception of the only guy who got canned early, a guy who spent NO #1 or #2 picks, a guy who DIDN’T trade away the farm, a guy who improved our record from 59 wins to 88 in 3 1/2 years and got short circuted by the impatient Wilpon.
A guy who said that “free agency is a short term solution to a long term problem.” A guy who lost his job to someone who said “prospects will get you fired.”
A guy who traded away Bobby Bonilla vs. a guy who traded FOR Bobby Bonilla.
T, I’m guessing u refer to “Trader” Joe McIlvaine(1994-1997)
T, while, I see no point to it mattering to this current season. I’ll humour u & step into your “wayback machne”; but I demand that we actually cobsider facts as they actually were,. not as you’d like them to be with immaginary draft picks, slots woyuld never accomodate choosing. Ok, T, here we are in 2005, the day after Omar’s announcement as GM of the 2004 fourth place NY Mets. Certainly, at this point in time with the creme of the Farm either promoted or dealt for trash(KAZMIR) following the 2004 MLB roster purge by Jeff/Duquette that eliminated ALL supoerfluous MLB tradeable vets(ALOMAR, BENITEZ, BURNITZ, ZEILE, VENTURA) only garnering 1 potentially viable prospect(RING) and given a rotation consisting of Glavine,Seo, Trachsel, Benson, Zambrano with Lopoper as your closer & only 2 noteworthy better than average upcoming talents in your lineup as inrxperienced Reyes & Wright interspersed with “getting older fast slugger, Piazza & defensively rangey strikeout spewcialist Cammeron as your lineup studs. With only 1 potentially viable suspect/prospect in the stables of your farm(Milledge). As the new GM in “NOW MATTERS” NYC exactly what would your blueprint for improvement have been, if not the talent rich in areas u need, F/A market with nothing to trade for younger prospect pkgs, already discarded by Duquette. Since, whomever u draft is a far-future consideration & your employment viability relies upon current competitiveness. with no viable ability to add improvements to upper farm levels and being saddled with an estasblished “ho-hum” field mngr, a “pitching coach” who reports around u directly to your boss, by design & contract with no authorization to eat guaranteed $$$ by your superiors, lacking a magic lamp to rub, your preferred route for improvement would have been? keep in mind the impatience of your immediate superior, COO, Jeff, who never wanted to hire a Duquette replacement rather preferring merging the GM responsibilities with his own. Thus, it’s important to consider that concerns over 5y,7y or longer programs held little importance to those setting your agenda & sighning your checks.
A guy who never won a damn thing or more games than Minaya did his first two years!
’62, I can’t disagree with any of your points. The win now mentality (or more likely the sell tickets now mentality) is a huge impediment to ever getting this thing turned around but with such a talent starved organization, more emphasis should have been put on the scouting, drafting signing and developing end of things.
Omar wasn’t going to be run out of town after 2 years regardless. If after 3 or 4 years you heard people raving about the Met prospects Omar would have been untouchable. A God. References to Frank Cashen would have been invoked. 2009 would have been the new 1984, and just in time to usher in the new Stadium.
Everyone knew that it was gonna take time. No one expected us to be in the playoffs in 2 years, let alone a base hit away from a World Series. Just think of the talent Omar could have discovered and signed with the money spent on Beltran, Pedro, Wagner and Delgado not to mention the #1, #2 and #3 picks handed over. But after that year ALL the focus became about fixing last years ills instead of the thing Omar was great at.
You and I agree the Wilpon is to blame for the shortsighted approach but as I’ve said before if you don’t examine what has worked well, what hasn’t and what things you could have done differently or better you’ll never change your approach.
Maybe just loosening the slotting guidelines alone would have provided an impetus for Omar to draft the high end talent this team has lacked since the late 80′s. Who knows? We know this though. There are no slotting guidelines in the IFA arena and we don’t spend nearly enough there and it continues to cost us big time up here both in losses and in fan disgust.
The only reason we signed Alou, Mota, Schowenweiss, Castillo, Perez, Cora, Jacobs, GMJ and all these other guys is because we had no other options from within our system. There is simply no other reason.
You didn’t see Cashen go and get some other teams reject to play CF when Mookie got hurt in 1985 did you? No, you saw him bring up Lenny. Why? Cause he drafted him four years before.
When Foster got hurt who played LF? A rookie infielder? No. Kevin Mitchell Why? Cause he was drafted four years before.
Starting players that were backed up by a future batting champion and a future MVP who were drafted signed and developed by us.
Big difference between those two and GMJ and Murphy (or Alou and Bay) and those picks given up for Alou and Bay could’ve been our new Dykstra’s or Mitchell’s but they won’t. They’ll be someone else’s.
The problem is the Wilpon. I know that. Every GM knuckles under to his foolish and gullible impatience but the work has got to be done someday and if it had started in 2005 (as we were led to believe by Omar himself) we would already be enjoying the fruits of that work.
A guy who took the franchise from 59 wins in 1993 when he took over to 88 wins in 1997 when he was canned without robbing from the future by spending a high draft choice ever.
A guy who was competing with two teams that won World Championships in the NL East during his reign who didn’t trade away the prospects he inherited which directly influenced the results his succsessor realized. Players like Rick Reed, Edgardo Alfonzo, Rey Ordonez, Bobby Jones, Preston Wilson, Jason Isringhausen,
A guy who made smart trades for younger veteran types that played well here like Gilkey, Lance Johnson and Olerud or would have if Phillips hadn’t traded them like Carl Everett.
A guy that drafted good talent, something that has been in very short supply around here since he left like AJ Burnett, Terrence Long, Paul Wilson, Jay Payton, Garrett Atkins, Jeremy Guthrie and David Dejesus.
A guy that left pieces for his successor both here and in the minors compared to a guy who spent everything he inherited and everything meant for the future and squandered everything else and had no tools in his belt other than prospects that other people procurred, draft picks that sabotaged the future and the owners checkbook and despite using all previous and all future resources could only get into the playoffs because a division rival took themselves out of contention
Thats right the guy who took 4 years to get 28 wins worth of improvement compared to a guy who got 26 games of improvement in TWO! 9 more games won in two than your genius could win in 4!
I suppose now is where you try and argue that winning 88 games is better than winning 97!
Because he did something in slotting you happen to agree with yet most people believe is unfair to small market teams and inflates salaries because your spending money on unproven guys who might never play in the ML instead of spending it on guys who not only HAVE MADE the ML, Help right away and are already superstars!
Mcilvaine took over a 59 win team. Phillips took over an 88 win team.
Mcilvaine competed in a division in which two different teams won World Championships during his tenure. Phillips competed in a Division in which no team won a World Championship.
Mcillvaine won his 88 games in a year in which the Marlins won the whole thing. Phillips won the same 88 games the next year after the Marlins gave us two of the best players in baseball and shipped out all the rest elsewhere and went from 92 wins all the way down to 54 and still couldn’t get a post season berth.
Phillips inherited a quite a few key ingredients of his success and quite a few more he traded away for other huge pieces. Phillips also borrowed against the future by spending three first round picks, two 2nd round picks and 2 third round picks and flat out blew three extra 1st round (or supp round) picks provided to him by Mcilvaine (1 for Reynosa and 2 for Olerud) and had some of the worst drafts in the history of the Major Leagues.
Phillips added to his predocessors work and stole from his successor to achieve what modest success he did enjoy most of which came about due to the dismantling of a team in his own division.
Phillips also traded AJ Burnett, Carl Everett, Jason Isringhausen, Melvin Mora, Nelson Cruz and Jason Bay.
Mcilvaine traded Bonilla, Phillips traded for Bonilla and before you claim that was just to get rid of Rojas’ contract please note that Phillips traded for him too.
The only reason Phillips had any success at all was because he inherited the key pieces of his teams and prospects capable of taking advantage of a World series Champion dismantling their team and then trading away the future from his successor by drafting like **** and handing over 7 high draft choices in 6 years.
Because he had bankrupted the farm that had been built up by Harazin, Hunsicker and Mcilvaine he then went out and got us the “Worst team money could buy part two” with Alomar, Vaughn, Burnitz and Cedeno leading us to 82, 75, and 66 wins because he couldn’t produce any players of his own. He could only trade off others success and borrow against the future and after his reign was over we were right back in the same position we were when Mcilvaine took over.
T, while u twist historical references into a halo prepared for Joe Mc’s brow, I did a little research & I wasn’t suprised to find a couple of McIlvaine stats, u appaently wished were overlooked such as presiding over the Gen K holocaust and the acquisition of the Alomar cursed precursor 2B from Cleveland, Carlos Baerga for future HOF 2B Kent while thRowing in his DP partner Vizcaino. While Joe undoubtedly laid the groundwork for ’97, his actual tenure includede 3 complete seasons 1994-1996, most noteworthy items were;
1994 53-58 18.5GB with 38.4M payroll ranked #17 in MLB
1995 69-75 21.0GB with 22.9M payroll ranked #21 in MLB
1996 71-91 25.0GB with 23.5M payroll ranked #21 in MLB
bonus data:
1997 88-74 13.0GB with 38.4M payroll ranked #16 in MLB
NB. how as his payroll shrinks his distance from first expands.
T, despite never finishing beter than tied for second in 1995. exactly what is it u seem to believe is so memorable to deserve such a special commenmoration by u?
It couldn’t be the quality of his additions on an ever diminishing payroll as his selections of Harnisch, Fordyce, Ledesma, Spiers, Barry, Orsulak, DiPoto, “wrong” Maddux, Hardtke, Espinoza in addition to over paying in talent for Baerga certainly leasds me to caution u that your condemnations of Minaya for Cora, Easley, Alou, GMJ, Jacobs, etc, no longer bear validity if your hero is equally guilty while never adding one top shelf prime aged veteran as an offset. If Omar is the POT, McIlvaine is the KETTLE!
’62, You make some valid points as usual. I’ve addressed the Kent/Baerga trade before and noted that is was the one regrettable trade during the Mcilvaine era.
In defense of that trade it should be pointed out that Kent, 2 years after, at age 30 then embarked on 8 straight years of .500+ SLG% which he had never attained before. Quite unusual to say the least.
Baerga at 26 years old quickly fell below .400 SLG% where he remained.
Obviously the trade was a bad one but in all fairness do these numbers make sense?
As for the players you mention these were just “hold the fort” guys until we had something to work with and they didn’t cost draft picks, high salaries, long term contract or prospects developing in the farm like Ordonez, Jones, Alfonzo, Burnett, Pulsipher, Wilson, Isringhausen, Payton, or Preston Wilson.
Mcilvaine also acquired good players for next to nothing or type B free agents that didn’t take away from the future and put up great seasons here. Players like Gilkey, Lance Johnson, John Olerud, Rick Reed, Vizcaino and provided us with credible prospects like Buford, Ochoa and Everett. Arguably Everitt’s bat and D in RF would have made a huge difference in 1999 and 2000. Buford and Ochoa didn’t produce but we got them for Bonilla who proved later on he wasn’t the answer.
He didn’t strip the farm and he didn’t mortgage the future to achieve what success he had and he did get us from 59 wins to 88. He also had parts of two seasons interrupted by the strike and an entire off season as well. He also had Doc Gooden’s final drug suspension and the unfortunate disintegration of Gen K.
I don’t know how much he can be assigned the blame for that. Some?, Any? All? I cannot say.
I know he left his successor in much better shape then the farm and team was in when he arrived and come 2003 after Phillips was canned we were right back to where we had been when Mcilvaine took over. No team, No farm.
Considering the results he provided 59-88 wins in three and a half years (including the players strike) he should have been given more time and who’s to say HE couldn’t have made those trades with the Marlins? Who’s to say he would have traded Isringhausen, Bay, Nelson Cruz or Carl Everett.
Steve Phillips never even bothered to sign any of the guys Mcilvaine selected in his last draft. Guys that could have provided options for us either while in the farm or in the Majors. Guys like Garrett Atkins, Jeremy Guthrie and David DeJesus. Not superstars but credible everyday performers. Phillips basically in 6 years drafted 1 great player, 2 short term guys and that’s it.
One thing you certainly have to give Mcilvaine is that he wouldn’t have had the historically awful draft that Phillips did after all as the NY Met Scouting Director he drafted Clemmons, Dykstra, Gooden, Youmans, McDowell, Gerald Young, Greg Olson, Rafeal Palmerio, Dave Magadan, Rick Aguilera, David West, Matt Williams, John Wettland, John Olerud, Scott Erickson, and Todd Jones. In San Diego among others he drafted (as high schoolers) Derrick Lee and Todd Helton.
Mcilvaine was about adding talent, Phillips wasn’t capable of that. All he could do was trade upon what was handed to him and borrow against the future and lead us back to the land of sub .400. Right where Mcilvaine had pulled us out from.
“You mean the same way that you insisted Omar was responsible for drafting AJ Burnett when he was working for Texas or Scott Kazmir when he was working for Montreal?”
Nice try and making up history again.
Just like the time you tried to claim Hunsicker was a GM here! I suggest you READ history not try and make it up so it fits your argument!
I never said such a thing and I dare you to post a link that shows I did!
So since you appear very eager to create your own facts and present these fantasies as evidence I will take the tone of a PROSECUTOR dealing with a hostile witness prepared to lie and subefuge his way out of the truth.
Question 1: WAS Jose Reyes an INTERNATIONAL SIGNING?
YES OR NO, NO side points, change of subject just YES or NO?
Since your previous testimony admits Minaya was in charge of that Reyes must be HIS!
Question 2: Who was Asst GM when David Wright was Drafted?
Would the Asst GM not be involved in a decision about who to draft? Or would they lock him in a closet and say sorry you have no say whatsoever?
The ONLY way your dismissal of Minaya’s contribution works is if you can prove Phillips LOVED wright and took him over Minay’s objections. But the truth is Phillips tried trading Wright twice as soon as Minaya left for Montreal!
Phillips didn’t like Wright! Phillips only was interested in wheeling and dealing and it was Minaya that oversaw and managed the SCOUTS as part of his Asst GM duties!
Minaya’s strength and abilities have ALWAYS been in player evaluation that is what has kept him employed for the last decade!
And looking at the number of prospects he PRODUCED and how many more games he WON than McIlvane it is obvious to anyone who has read your tripe the last three months regarding McIlvane’s greatness, and Slotting (which McIlvane is the one who FAILED to sign the guys you keep cutting and pasting by the way as examples of your Over slotting theory) that you are either Joe McIlvane himself desperatly trying to get employed as a GM again by re-writing history or you are a relative who is too damn ashamed to show his face and tell his name until you have re written the history to make McIlvane sound like he did something good when CLEARLY he did not!
Metsie, I already said that Omar had something to do with the Mets signing Reyes. A number of times.
I’m not stripping a man of his accomplishments. That’s what your doing by making claims that Minaya convinced Phillips to draft Wright. What makes you say that? As you ask people I’m asking you, PROVE IT. No hemming, hawing, beating around the bush. Just back up your claim.
You’ve made a number of assertions that take accomplishments off one mans resume and put them on another for instance when you claimed that Omar was responsible for drafting Burnett or Kazmir when he wasn’t even working for the Mets at the time.
Now your claiming that Minaya convinced Phillips to draft Wright and I’m asking you how do you know? What is the basis for your assertion? That he was there at the time? What kind of proof is that? Saul was there too. Omar was involved in the international end of things. Could he have? Not impossible but how do you know this? That’s what I’m asking.
We all know the story of Reyes. Eddy Toledo, originally hired by Frank Cashen, called Omar, his boss, and told him he had a guy he wanted to sign. That goes on Omar’s resume, fair enough. Who else did Omar sign as the Met Director of International scouting?
Metsie, on March 12, 2011 7:38 pm on a reply under the posting titled Where’s Omar Minaya? I want him back you wrote: Uh you need to do some research on our History…Wright and Reyes are as much Omar Accomplishments as anyones!
Omar was working for us first as scouting director and then Assitant GM from the Mid 90′s to 2002 when he left to GM the Expos. He came back in 2005!
David Wright was drafted 2001! So was Heilman
Jose Reyes was signed (not drafted) in 1999
Kazmir was also drafted largely on Minaya’s scouting despite his leaving before the draft to take the Expo gig.
Pelfrey and Davis are also both his picks. Add Niese for good measure!
Lets see thats 3/4th of an infield and our #1 Pitcher and #3 until Santana gets back!
Thole, Duda, Evans, Murphy…All Minaya!
Havens (another Minaya pick) is almost ready to become the next big ML call up if he shows enough bat in the Minors this year.
And that resurgent guy over on the other side of town Aj Burnett also was a Minaya pick!
Angel Pagan was also a Omar 4th round draft pick in 1999.
So Pretty much everyone anyone LIKES on this team is a guy Minaya found and had something to do with Aquiring!
Your facts are all wrong. Minaya was not the Scouting Director from the mid 1990′s on, in fact he was never the Scouting Director. He was the International Scouting Director. Totally different function. You also stated Minaya was responsible for drafting AJ Burnett, Nick Evans and Scott Kazmir when in fact he was working for other teams when those players were drafted by us.
The fact is you have no way of knowing if Minaya had anything at all to do with us drafting Wright. Your guessing just like you were when you claimed he was responsible for drafting people for us when he was working in Texas and Montreal.
Your just making it up as you go and then changing your story.
As you asked here are your own words saying exactly what I said you said.
The question I have Metsie is how do YOU KNOW that Omar scouted and “convinced” Phillips to draft him. You state it as if you were in the WAR room at draft time. Were you? How else can you be so sure?
The same way you can be so sure that he insisted upon Evans, Kazmir and Burnett? While he was working elsewhere?
You state emphatically the Omar was responsible for drafting these guys and the only way we know your full of baloney is because Omar was working for Texas or Montreal at the time but we’re supposed to recognize that you are “in the know” about these matters.
The fact is everyone with the exception of a complete jackass is aware that the Director of Amateur Scouting’s primary function is the draft, The Mets had Carmen Fusco in this position. Secondly I believe the GM would have a fairly large say in the matter. Thirdly Omar’s area of influence was on the international side so without any sort of inside information one would not ordinarily associate the Director of International Scouting with the US June draft and one would think that Omar would be pretty busy himself at that time preparing for the annual July signing period for 16 year old’s and up in the DR.
The fact that Phillips tried to trade a prospect is no proof at all that Omar insisted we draft one of them. Where do you get that weird idea from?
The simple fact is that no proof exists anywhere to support your claims and even if Omar was in the draft room Omar could just as likely been the reason for all the blown and wasted draft picks of the Phillips years.
Maybe Omar demanded we draft Jason Tyner, Pat Strange, Bobby Keppel, Neal Musser, Jake Josephs, Billy Traber, Matt Peterson, Alhaji Turay, Corey Rangsdale, or Lasting Milledge. These were all 1st and 2nd round draft choices of the Phillips era. How do we know that Omar didn’t insist we draft all of these guys?
The reason we know that Omar didn’t is because the person who ran the draft (Carmen Fusco) and the GM (Steve Phillips) are almost certainly the only ones who make the call. Omar would have fuctioned much like Fusco in the International area. So to make these outlandish claims that Omar was the “head of all scouting” when he wasn’t, “Omar was responsible for us drafting——–” when it was completely illogical that he was even involved (or possible if he was working for another team) Other than Wright, Heilman, and Kazmir those are the other high picks of the Phillips era and you want to assign only those to Omar? Nice try Metsie. Fact is Omar almost certainly had nothing what so ever to do with the draft.
Good thing to his Texas drafts weren’t very good and his three montral drafts were really bad. One player, Chad Cordero, in three years. That aint good.
As for your crack about Gerry Hunsicker maybe you should do a little reading. Baseball America names Gerry Hunsicker as the Director of baseball operations in 1991 and 1992 with the “function” being listed as General Manager. That’s the way I remember it and that’s the way baseball America has it listed. Check it out someday yourself, you might learn something about who does what in a baseball front office. Don’t get your knickers all in a knot over the title either. Mcilvaine was the “Executive vice President , Baseball Operations but his “function” was as GM. Omar had been Exec VP, GM.
One interesting item to be found in the Baseball America executive database is the Director of Amateur Scouting in 2005 was Russ Bove, coincidentally the man who ran the draft for Omar in 2005. Rusy Teraases assumed that title the following year and coincidentally enough happened to run the next 4 draft for Omar. That’s because that’s the job of The Director of Amateur Scouting. That’s why it would be presummed that Carmen Fusco who had that title while Omar was here would have run the draft, not Omar. Good thing for Omar because Fusco/Phillips drafts sucked big time and are a big part of the reason we had to import a player for every position other than SS and 3B during the Minaya regime.
The point is you just fabricate things in order to “prove yourself correct” but what good does that do? When you lie you just obscure the truth. Everyone makes mistakes fair enough. Me too but at least have ashred of intellectual honesty in your debate. Don’t clain things that aren’t true and then claim you didn’t say them. Don’t make up stuff to support your opinions. The fact that someone wrote an article saying that Phillips tried trading a player is no more proof that Minaya was responsible for drafting that player than it is that Minaya himself wouldn’t have made that trade. After all Minaya did pull the trigger on the infamous Bartolo Colon deal.
Get real Man. Keep it clean, keep it honest.
You are so wrong on some many different levels I don’t know where to start!
But here we go anyway! (this is the part you ALWAYS leave out when you contradict!
Who was the Asst GM and head of scouting when Wright and reyes were aquirred?
Answer that then tell me how your FACTS stack up!
Reyes was not Omar’s call. That is well known.
Hey, maybe he got lucky and drafted Wright, but given a look at the rest of his history, that was a smarter underling that made that call. Can we also “credit” Omar with finding Aaron Heilman?
And what did Omar do in his 6 years (which is way more time than Alderson has had) as the GM?
Where are all the prospects he brought up? What happened to all the high priced talent he signed?
Whether it was through his own ineptitude or FO meddling, Omar failed.
Prospects? You mean Murphy, Pagan, Pelfrey, Davis, Niese, and Thole?
With Mejia, Capt Kirk, Dillon Gee, Harvey, and Havens in waiting?
Prove he had NOTHING to do with reyes…go on I DARE you Donal. SHow that he was working for another team when reyes signed.
Then I’ll drop the Phillips Quote Bomb on you!
And laugh my a$$ off at your continued arrogance!
Murph and Pagan are utility guys. Besides, Minaya let Pagan go for nothing and had to trade to bring him back.
Pelf was over hyped and rushed without a chance to develope by…which administration? And they tried their damnedest to do the same to Mejia.
Gee is a #3 starter on his best day. Same with Niese.
Neiwenhaus is like Angel Pagan if he’s lucky. A servicable outfielder.
“Prove he had NOTHING to do with reyes…go on I DARE you Donal. SHow that he was working for another team when reyes signed.”
I didn’t say he worked for another team. Toleda and Mercado had to beg, BEG, Minaya and Duquette to sign Reyes.
But hey, don’t take my word for it
“Eddy really was the one who did a great job. I kind of oversaw the department. And Eddy called me, because before he signed him, I had to approve him. When I first saw Reyes, I thought he was the kind of player that was important in the organization – a more athletic player. But I think all the credit should go to Eddy Toledo.”
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2004-10-03/sports/18273207_1_hispanic-heritage-management-skills-jerry-manuel/2
“Then I’ll drop the Phillips Quote Bomb on you!”
The prospects get you fired crap?
“And laugh my a$$ off at your continued arrogance!”
That is your problem, you’re laughing when you should be learning.
As I suspected Donal, You couldn’t prove your point, just changed the subject and tried to disparage our players merely because they wear a Met Uni!
and yes, Ike is very good, possibly a future All Star and Thole is a decent catcher. But Thole was a 13th round pick. It is sheer luck he actually turned out to be major league talent.
And ya, Havens is in waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting…
Harvey has 3, count ‘em 3, professional starts. Why not see how he does over a full season before we declare him a success, mmmkay?
After 6 years, Minaya left us with how many Top 50 prospects? 1. Mejia at #44.
Metsie I’ve already told you that Minaya was never the “head of scouting” under Phillips. If he was then HE would be responsible for the historically awful drafts of the Phillips regime.
Omar was the Asst GM and INTERNATIONAL scouting director. Carmen Fusco was the Amateur scouting director and Gary La Roque the minor league scouting director and Jim Duquette the Asst. GM and Director of player personal.
The amateur scouting director is in charge of running the draft with the GM presumably making the call on the early picks. The INTERNATIONAL scouting director is in charge of INTERNATIONAL scouting, not the draft.
You can’t possibly know what, if any impact Omar had on any of the Phillips’ drafts but we do know that the scope of his job title is outside of this Country.
The only way we can prove that Omar didn’t have anything to do with players you claim he was responsible for drafting is that half of them (AJ Burnett, Kazmir) were drafted when he wasn’t even working for the Mets. The one’s that were drafted when he was here would have had first and foremost way more to do with Fusco and Phillips.
Besides if you want to glom all the credit of Phillips notoriously poor drafts for Omar then you have to assign the blame to him for those drafts too.
1n 1998 the best player drafted by Phillips was Ty Wiggenton 17th round, no one else did anything.
1999 Pagan, no one else did a damn thing. We also spent a #1 pick on Robin Ventura.
2000 No one did anything despite us having 2 extra first round picks due to losing Olerud. We also lost a #1 pick for Todd Zeile.
2001 Heilman 1st #18, Wright 1st #38 No one else did anything at all despite us having extra picks due to losing Hampton. We also lost a #1 pick due to signing Kevin Appier who was turned into Mo Vaughn
2002 Kazmir 1st Matt Lindstrom 17th no else ever did anything. 2002 was a great draft year. Among the players passed over that were drafted after Kazmir were Swisher, Hamels, Guthrie, Cain, Votto, Lester, Broxton, McCann, Granderson, and Josh Johnson. Of course it didn’t help that Phillips gave away our 2nd and 3rd round draft choices for David Weathers and Roger Cedeno or that the Athletics wound up getting 2 extra first round selections from THEIR “loss” of Jason Isringhausen. Arguably, the loss of those 4 draft choices is the reason we are so talent starved at the Major League level today.
2003 Milledge and Brian Bannister and no one else ever did anything. Once again the 2nd and third round picks were spent on free agents Cliff Floyd and Tom Glavine.
So as you can see being the “head of scouting” during the Phillips regime is hardly a feather in one’s cap. Thankfully for Omar he wasn’t. That was Carmen Fusco. Omar was on the international end where he produced just one great player and no one else ever did anything.
Yep and I already told you that Reyes was an INTERNATIONAL signing and Phillips said Minaya was the one who convinced him to take Wright when Phillps had reservations!
But you ignored that last time we discussed just as I expect you will ignore it again because it doesn’t fit with your Minaya sucked agenda!
Your Hero McIlvane’s creations never won as many games as Minayas did and it bothers the hell out of you that your hero got fired for FAILING despite how good your revisionist look at history tried to pretend it was.
Metsie your now claiming that Omar insisted we draft Wright? You mean the same way that you insisted Omar was responsible for drafting AJ Burnett when he was working for Texas or Scott Kazmir when he was working for Montreal?
Omar was on the international end. International. There has never been any indication of Omar ever having anything at all to do with drafting David Wright.
If there is PROVE IT. Other wise your claim is no different then your claims about him drafting players who were drafted when he was working elsewhere.
And after you can’t prove it please explain why Heilman (1st rnd #18) was drafted 20 spots in front of Wright (Supp rnd # 38) Was that his idea too or is this just another fabrication of yours?
Please provide your “proof”
Omar’s drafts in Texas were nothing special when he worked under Sandy Johnson and his 3 drafts in Montreal were awful. In three years the only player he ever got who did anything was Chad Cordero.
He also made the worst trade in the history of baseball during those years. The infamous, Bartolo Colon for Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore, Lee Stevens and Cliff Lee deal.
Metsie I didn’t need you to “tell me” Reyes was an international signing. Everyone already knows that. Everyone also knows that Eddy Toledo was the scout that identified Reyes, called Omar and got permission to sign him for 15K.
As the Met Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting for three years would you please share with us some other names that he signed for the NY Mets from Latin America?
Metsie, We’re still waiting for you to prove that Minaya is the one who convinced Phillips to draft Wright.
We’re also wondering if Minaya convinced Phillips to draft Heilman 20 spots in front of Wright as well.
We’re also wondering how you can be so sure that the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting had such a big say in the draft.
We’re also wondering what players other than Reyes our Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting procurred for us during his three years in that position.
Please elaborate.
“Metsie I didn’t need you to “tell me” Reyes was an international signing. Everyone already knows that.”
Yeah except you still say Reyes had nothing to do with the guy you have admitted was IN CHARGE of International signings!
Ed Toledo was working for WHO?
Sorry dude your attempt to strip Minaya of all the good we have currently and your feeble attempt to make a 88 win in 4 years of work better than 97 wins in two has fallen apart!
I suggest you drop it. your starting to look foolish!
Here is your proof!
Wright and Reyes both SIGNED and SCOUTED when Omar was Asst GM.
As soon as he left Phillips tried to get rid of them meaning “PHILLIPS DID NOT LIKE THEM!”
If not for Ricciardi they wouldn’t be here!
and if not for Omar signing BOTH to long term contract they would not be here STILL!
Here is the link, read it and weep!
http://www.blueandorange.net/?p=779
Metsie, While I don’t dispute the substance of that article it does nothing to prove that Omar (who’s sphere of influence was in the international area) “convinced Phillips to draft Wright” as you claim.
I don’t doubt for one second that Phillips tried to trade Reyes and Wright. That was the only tool in his shed. Trading the farm, forfeiting draft choices, raising the payroll. That’s it. He traded lot’s of guys, that’s why Omar had next to nothing to work with when he got here. Phillips traded everyone cause he couldn’t develop any players on his own. It was like a ponzi scheme. Isringhausen, Everett, Nelson Cruz, Bay, Escobar anyone with any value whatsoever. Anything to keep the ponzi scheme going. Remember it was Phillips who claimed “prospects will get you fired.”
One thing (in this case) that is not in dispute was that Minaya was in fact actually working for the Mets but who would make the call on who got drafted? The Asst GM in charge of INTERNATIONAL scouting or the actual Director of scouting and the General Manager? Presumably the director of international scouting would be involved in scouting players from outside the country, not Virginia.
The fact that Phillips attempted to trade Wright and Reyes only advances the theory that Phillips is a moron. Nothing new there.
The fact that Omar wisely bought out a year of free agency for Reyes and two for Wright in 2006 when they were playing at their best was simply a good move at best and more likely just a no brainer any GM would have done and in and of itself, again, is no proof that Omar convinced Phillips to draft David Wright” as you claim
As for Reyes being signed that would fall into the area of INTERNATONAL scouting. The scout who found Reyes (Eddy Toledo who was hired by Frank Cashen) did work for Omar. We get it. Put Reyes on Omar’s resume. No complaints but this article does nothing to advance your assertion that Minaya “convinced Phillips (and presumably the Director of Amateur Scouting Carmen Fusco) to select Wright at #38 in 2002.
Your “proof” is no proof at all. It’s proof of something entirely different then “Minaya convinced Phiilps to dradt Wright.”
D, u’ve got to learn to give the devil his due. Minaya deserves credit for turning Flushing into a potential destination rather than a career detour(BEFORE RETIREMENT) for the likes of; PEDRO, BELTRAN, SANTANA, DELGADO, WAGNER, K-ROD, BAY previously the ONLY premere F/A to volutarily don the beloved colors, was George Fosrter; but only a couple of yrs after our equal financial offer was rudely rejected by Winfield claiming his desire for title chances over financial riches.
What was accomplished by those talents was uncontrollasble by any front office certainly that amouinted to more than enough talent supplied to do a proper job since there was absolutely zero quality remaining on the farm to have waited for.
Donal, if u were completely honest with yourself, you’d have to admit, like myself, in 2004 when u read speculation of Met interest in Martinez, u initially dismissed it as more useless propogasnda by another F/A’s using a big market team’s name to pump $$ into his pocket, u’d consider exactly what new transparent excuse t demure the Mets’ frontoffice would conjur up be it the old “24 & 1″ A-Rod or the “bad back” Gurerro? Even after being suprised @ getting a top-flifght SP(Pedro) to acquiesce, along with the rest of us u certainly bemoaned “here we go again” when rumors of further adding Beltran & Delgado were floated by the touts, didn’t they know the Mets & Yanks were different animals & one of them would never keep hunting after bagging their first big trophy in 20+ yrs, regardless of needs. Suddenly this franchise who’d never warranted any consideration as “A PLAYER” for ‘prime’ aged F/A talent was a consideration. As we take account of all that has transpired & disappointed and search out our scapegoats the inventory of perps is mostly:
A)OMAR MINAYA
B)WILLIE RANDOLPH
C)JERRY MANUAL
D)GOD
E)THE PLAYERS
F)OWNERSHIP
G)ALL OF THE ABOVE
Donal, what say u on your answer? did I miss any?
BTW, Donal about those top 50 prospects, he inherited ONLY 1(MILLEDGE?) so unlike his predecessors he maintained rather that depreciate the farm produce. However, Pelfrey, Parnell, Davis, Thole, Murphy are ALL rostered(precluding their Top 50 potential inclusion) and ALL are carrying Omar’s brand burned onto their a$$e$. We too often forget the shambles Omar inherited in taking over a barely fourth place team without any talent pipeline. In fact the MLB roster he was charged to improve somehow was:
New York Mets
Roster 2004
Name Position
James Baldwin P
Heath Bell P
Kris Benson P
Ricky Bottalico P
Craig Brazell 1B
Brian Buchanan LF
Mike Cameron CF
Vic Darensbourg P
Mike DeJean P
Wilson Delgado SS
Victor Diaz RF
Jeff Duncan CF
Scott Erickson P
Pedro Feliciano P
Cliff Floyd LF
Bartolome Fortunato P
John Franco P
Danny Garcia 2B
Karim Garcia RF
Matt Ginter P
Tom Glavine P
Ricky Gutierrez 2B
Aaron Heilman P
Richard Hidalgo RF
Jeff Keppinger 2B
Al Leiter P
Braden Looper P
Kazuo Matsui 2B
Joe McEwing 2B
Orber Moreno P
Jose Parra P
Jason Phillips C
Mike Piazza C
Jose Reyes SS
Grant Roberts P
Jae Seo P
Esix Snead LF
Shane Spencer LF
Mike Stanton P
Steve Trachsel P
Eric Valent RF
David Weathers P
Dan Wheeler P
Gerald Williams CF
Tom Wilson C
Vance Wilson C
David Wright 3B
Tyler Yates P
Victor Zambrano P
With zero prospects outside of Milledge & the recently acquired for Alomar, Ring in the system you may note how few expendable talents are listed that may have any trade value. Do u truly believe any imporovement could have been envisioned without significant delving into the F/A market? Ttypically, teams who choose a change of direction decide to purge their existing talent on the books to acquire future talent consideration(prospects) when those vets are priced higher than their market evaluation, astute teams include cash as payroll offset to significantly inmprove the talent level received in return, prior to Omar’s hiring Jeff ordered such a purge be completed by Duquette while steadfastly refusing to allow Duquette to include ANY CASH OFFSETS as Alomar, Benitez, Burnitz, Ventura, Zeile were all dispatched ‘as is’ & for whatever could be gotten. despite all that veteran potential talent being dispersed among a number of playoff hopefuls(LAD,CHW,NYY) the youthdful return acquired for the most part left Baseball America’ds top 50 unaltered as to affiliation as only because he’d agreed to accept a sore armed older MiLB reliever(Almonte) as well did Duquette net the single best talent in the entire return(Royce Ring). It’s come to light that the Sterling ownership’s seemingly deep pockets were certainly a mirage of backloaded take Peter’s to pay Paul transactions designed to win now & by vvirtue of that winning increase revenues to a level that can meet those future indentures promised as nducements to sign in the backends to players. As the planned for winning never materialized the enthusiastic financial support from a highly leveraged owner dissipated so, Donal, now that history has been retreaded your answer to the aforementioned multiple chouice as primary scapegoat is????
I blame ownership 100%. Everyone they hire is just doing their bidding. Does anyone really believe Jeff Wilpon when he claims he doesn’t meddle?
Ownership sets the desired course and everyone else hops on board. The only one that didn’t got short circuited.
With almost no talent of any kind left behind by the wreckage of the Phillips and Duquette years the job should have been first and foremost about building up, then building out when the foundation could support it. Anything else is backward but as I say he was only doing what the business owners were most concerned with. Selling tickets this year.
If the owners ever just stopped worrying about everything other than building a winning team capable of competing for a world championship every single year. Year after year, everything else that their so concerned about would just vanish.
Public perception, PR, selling tickets, looking good, ratings, ad revenue. Everything. Just concentrate on the one and only thing that matters, winning baseball games.
How do you do that? The best way is to have the best players, have them all at the same time and in their prime.
How do you get them? Very easy. Hire the best scouts, pay them well, triple the staff, flood the Caribbean, sign as many high ceiling IFA’s as you can, draft the best talent, give out good signing bonuses and develop them with patience, care and most of all competence.
Don’t just sit around every year and then wonder “who are we going to get to play these 8 positions.” every year.
’62, What does Omar brand look like and is it available in the Team Store?
It seems like people are finally catching up with me and realizing that the Mets plan all along was to rebuild and NOT compete. Relax folks, pace yourself you have 3-5yrs of frustration ahead of you.
Do people really think the Mets front office thought Brad Emaus was going to be a competent major league 2nd baseman?
Do people really think the Mets front office thought that the Mets could compete for the National League east with a no name lefty arm in the bullpen?
Do people really think the Mets front office thought it could compete for the Naiotnal League east with Josh Thole as the teams starting catcher? A major league catcher who just a few years ago was drafted as a position player?
Lifelong I can’t speak for the rest but I said even before Sandy was hired that whoever was the GM would use this season to evaluate what talent was here and start the rebuild depending on what happened before the trading deadline.
Which is why Reyes hasn’t been extended yet and Beltran (and maybe Reyes) will be traded come that trade deadline.
How much more of the Hairston show do we have to endure?
Hu, a pinchhitter…are you F(*&^g! Kidding Me!!!
Please make Murphy a starter!
I agree, Hairston must GO. I also wouldn’t have brought up Turner. He acted like a spoiled brat in ST when he got cut, saying something to the effect of “well Brad ought to be happy now”. Not exactly comments a good teammate would make. I would have brought up Zach Lutz whose stinging the ball in AAA and has the OBP/Slugging numbers the FO wants. Hu could fill in @ 2B, no need for a platoon. Also DFA’ing Hairston and calling up Neuiwenhuis would make good sense to me as well. You’ve got a veteran OF’er in Hairston who is unfit to hit or play defense and is unlikely to suddenly “find” his game, so why not give a chance to a young player who plays the game the right way and would actually appreciate a chance to play Major League Baseball. Unlike Hairston.
The Bay injury really screwed them in terms of bench. And the starters unable to reach the 6th hasn’t helped the pen either.
Bringing up Neuiwenhuis would be a waste because we are supposed to be getting Bay back this week. He’ll end up just riding the pine when he should be getting PAs and time in the outfield.
Lutz is a 3B so I have no idea why you think he should be brought up.
And Hu can’t hit above the Mendoza line. He’s a defensive back up and pinch runner. They are better off with the current platoon situation.
This guy Hairston makes Ron Swoboda look like a gazelle. He’s unbelievable.
If he could hit anything below his beltline, he’d be an AL guy. Everything has to be up in the strikezone to give him a prayer’s chance. He’s not a hitter anymore and can’t play the outfield. So I guess he’ll fit in until Sandy gets more major league players.
geniusalderson should have given the hairston,boyer,emouse et all monies to sol katz to invest on wall street.or perhaps play the lottery!or maybe try to hit a number on the street.ronald allan swatboda had a few traits that make the hairston comparison insulting.to start with he won a championship…he made a catch in the 69 series to bail out tommy franchise..he had guts and brains. ya know brains didn’t start with geniusalderson and his ivy league crew of self promoters!by the way,didn’t u say just the other day that emouse was good at second till havens is ready…..!i guess geniusalderson didn’t get your memo!
Anyone else find it odd that a guy named HAIRSTON is bald?
As for PH Hu, You have to play te guys that are on your bench. Hu is one of the few bench players HU is here for his glove!
The rest are all here for their bat IGNORING the glove which is why we have almost as many or more errors as we have losses!
I think that Sandy Alderson singed Hairiston to a guaranteed major league deal.
Are you questioning… the great one? Next you’ll be questioning Obama?
Here’s Hairston’s signing:
1 year/$1.1M (2011)
$0.4M in performance bonuses
It looks like the Mets won’t have to fork over any of the performance money.
Turner is a 2nd baseman and has been in the minors. Murphy plays a better 2nd base then he does and has only played it in winter ball and ST. Bayonne where are you.” Murphy will never play 2nd base for this team or any other” Your quote. Now its Murphy when right hand pitchers are on the other team as a platoon. I bet he will take over for Turner everyday as Turner had 2 errors in Buffalo in April. He can hit Left hand pitching and has 5 HRs in 2009against lefties.
Dan Murphy is not a major league 2nd baseman. Any major league team that consistently play Murphy at 2nd base is forgoing it’s ability to compete.
The length of the baseball season is the great equalizer.
What’s your evidence?
He’s got range, a great arm and right now a fielding average that ticks off the haters!!!
In his last ten games, Ruben Tejada has a .182 AVG and a .182 SLG – few hits and none for extra bases. But his fielding % has gone up to .902 for the season. His defense has been terrible but his career numbers are better than he’s now showing.
It’s been very cold up in Buffalo and Ruben may have trouble with the weather. His play to date indicates he’s in a slump both offensively and defensively. It happened to Nick Evans a couple of years ago when he was first sent down.
Oh my ears… the little metsies are already turning on some of alderson’s moves. how quick the love turns to hate. dear clayton collier, you are as silly as the false agee is stupid, if you think a phillie fan be me. I just root for all the big league teams to beat on your rotten little fan base, and looking at the flushing toilet last night, shrinking fan ase is not even close to factual. 3rd year in new place and alreadt emptier than big shea was at the worst!!! keep on hatin little metsies.
I can’t help; but wonder if Niese’s reluctance to showcase his outstanding deuce is the reult of his pisspoor handling by NYM in his debut. As the Premere LHP prospect in the organization, most teams tend to seek out opportune scenerios under which to debut their most cherished future contributors; but not the arrogant NYM of past regime, be it Minaya, Bernazard or Jeffy. They slot this promising portsider to lose his virginity, “on the road”: by allowing him to be publicly raped by the NL offense that had, up to that time, proven to be THE MOST DESTRUCTIVELY EFFICIENT MAULER OF ALL PITCHERS, LEFT-HANDED(THE BREWERS IN MILWALKEE) ARMED SOLELY WITH HIS MODEST HIGH 80s FASTBALL & ‘DEVASTATING IN AAA’ HOOK, NIESE WAS BLUDGEOUNED REPEATEDLY UNTIL HIS EYES GLAZED OVER.(and wives called demanding their husbands, on the field, be protected.LOL) Since then, that deuce, though one of his best offerrings, only appears reluctantly & only if his cutter is ‘off’.
I would hate to think Niese may join the ranks of Isringhausen, Pulsipher, Wilson, Tim Leary, Aaron Hellman & perhaps Parnell as substantial talents lost due to arrogant mishandling.
Evans can’t be worse than Hairston, or bring up Newk to back up Pagan
You prob won’t see Kirk until after the trading deadline.
As for bringing up Evans My guess is Hairston will be the next victim of the HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE wave that has hit us recently.
Problem is that when everything goes bad as it is, nothing works. Problem is Hairston is signed for 1M and already paying two other salaries (Ollie & Castillo. How many more can we pay?
Are we as bad as we look or better than we look?
1 Mil is like a league minimum. I’m sure Sandy wouldn’t sweat it if he had to cut him. Don’t think he will actually just saying.
Hairston’s bat may come around. Harris has taken some of his expected field time and he may not be sharp at the moment. Hairston is really here as a Beltran rest option not to carry the team, the fact he has had to is because Bay has been missing and Hairston and Collins both admitted he has been trying to do too much and not swinging level like he did in spring.
The Fielding? well thats a concern but it wouldn’t be so obvious if Bay were playing regularly and we only had to deal with it on days Beltran wasn’t in the lineup.
T, your above posting that begions as;
___________________________________________________________________________________________t agee says:
April 21, 2011 at 11:39 am
’62, I can’t disagree with any of your points. The win now mentality (or more likely the sell tickets now mentality) is a huge impediment to ever getting this thing turned around but with such a talent starved organization, more emphasis should have been put on the scouting, drafting signing and developing end of things.
Omar wasn’t going to be run out of town after 2 years regardless. If after 3 or 4 years you heard people raving about the Met prospects Omar would have been untouchable. A God. References to Frank Cashen would have been invoked. 2009 would have been the new 1984, and just in time to usher in the new Stadium.
Everyone knew that it was gonna take time. No one expected us to be in the playoffs in 2 years, let alone a base hit away from a World Series. Just think of the talent Omar could have discovered and signed with the money spent on Beltran, Pedro, Wagner and Delgado not to mention the #1, #2 and #3 picks handed over. But after that year ALL the focus became about fixing last years ills instead of the thing Omar was great at.
___________________________________________________________________________________________was both unrepliable & too long for me to entirely copy.
My response is sinply this;
T, I can’t help; but think how different everything could’ve been had Omar been allowed by ownership to complertely follow his plan for overall improvement, Omar laid out to a skeptical Bill Madden over breakfast in the DR, shortly after Pedro was inked & at the beginning of the Beltran courtship. In response to Madden’s inquisition over the lost first round draft selections & how Omar intended to improve the desert of a farm system, Omar clearly laid out how important he believed balancing top American draft selections with independently developed international signings as “the future restocking pool”, whereas Omar specifically declared his intentions to vulture the top bypassed draft talents just as other large market clubs had been doing for yrs”(BOS,NYY).
T, that was “the plan” I believe it was certainly logical as well as viable had it not been scuttled by Fred’s alegance proclaimation to the Selig “slot commandments”. Having the wind torn out from his sails by Madden’s informing him of Met ownership’s proclaimation as “SLOT SLUTS” Omar’s only retort was the. “I’ll need to look into that, it may need to be adjusted”. We can all discern the outcome of his appeal & the deafness of the ears it must have fell upon. Should Omar have known this before taking the job? Perhaps; but coming over to the promised fiduciary freedom of independent ownership from the restraints of Communistic(Industry) ownership while it doesn’t excuse not asking, it certainly could be understandable to assume no independent owner espousing a wuillingness to win would voluntasrily restict his own ability to compete fairly. It most likely never entered Omar’s mind that these owners he last knew as entusiastic ‘new’ sole proprietors who had challenged vociferously Selig’s proposed big market LUXURY TAX. While obviously Madden knew the lay of the conditions & was driven to inquire, a newly minted GM uninformed of the changed pro-Selig environement could possibly be excused for assuming; however, a competant COO certainly, like Madden, should have at least broached the subject of farm construction, for isn’t that just as much his responsibility? ON A NORMAL TEAM, THAT IS.
’62, I lay 75% of the blame for the talent seperation between us and everyone else on the franchise crippling slot guidelines. How an Owner can insist on drafting the least talented players and expect to win is beyond me.
If Omar was the “head of scouting” as Metsie claims, during the Phillips Regime he would certainly have known ahead of time about the ridiculous and self destructive adhearence to slotting guidelines insisted upon by the Wilpon.
Omar was not the “head of scouting” Carmen Fusco was the Director of Amateur scouting during the Phillips Regime but somehow I find it extremely difficult to believe that Omar wouldn’t have heard about this literal sabotaging of the franchise during regular office scuttlebut. He had to know, after all WE knew. We knew about this, how could he NOT?
I can understand not going over the luxury tax, in fact I agree with it. Checkbook baseball never works anyway and even if someday it did would immediately crumble afterward. That’s not a good result.
Getting great production from 5 or 6 highly talented youngsters is what supports a Cliff Lee or Roy Halliday before you win and breeds a culture of winning inside your clubhouse that newcomers feel the need to fit into. Our mercenaries have nothing to fit into.
T, FINALLY A ‘REPLY’ BUTTON ON ONE OF YTOUR COMMENTS TO ME (LOL)
IN MANY RESPECTS YOU’RE PREACHING TO THE CHOIR Re LUXURY TAX; BUT I BELIEVE U MISSED MY POINT IN MENTIONING IT, MY POINT WAS THAT WHEN OMAR DEPAETRED FOR EXPOS SELIG & FRED WERE ON THE OUTS PRIMARILY OVER THE TAX ISSUE. WE AGREE ON MINIAYA’S LAST DIR OF SCOUTING GIG PREDATING HIS MET CAREER WITH TX; HOWEVER, I BELIEVE HE WAS LIKELY TOO INVOLVED WITH JUGGLING HIS OWN RESPONSIBILITIES IN MONTREAL TO PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO FRED’S PRESSERS. AS FANS, WE OFTEN FORGET, WHILE OUR CONCENTRATION IS SOLELY FOCUSED ON FLUSHING, THOSE NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED OR WOTKING FOR OTHER TEAMS/MLB, NOT SO MUCH; I’D BE PRETTY CERTAIN THAT OMAR BELIEVED HE’D MISSED HIS OPORTUNITY W/METS ONCE PHILLIPS CHOSE TO REMIOVE HIM AS A THREAT FOR HIS JOB. I’M NOT HOLDING MINAYA TOTALLU HARMLESS, I’M JUST EXPLAING HOW I CAN UNDERTAND IT HAPPENING, SORTA LIKE EXPLAINING FRIENDLY FIRE INCIDENTS, IT’S SOMEWHAT UNDERSTANDABLE; BUT NEVER ENCOURAGED OR CONCURRED WITH.
I hear you ’62. Omar was probably juggling millions of things in Montreal and who knows the full story. One one hand Omar said that “you need big stars in NY.” On the other hand he claimed he wanted us “to get younger and more athletic.”
We do know this. Omar never worked in the minor league system of any team he ever worked for. He was confined to scouting in Texas and became an asst GM in NY in 1998. He was the GM and probably served many other functions in Montreal, but most likely had to leave the farm to someone else.
He was particularly good at finding undervalued talent that could “hold the fort” until his “guys” could get up here. If he had let some of those “hold the fort” guys go, replenished them, and instead of spending draft choices, acquired extra ones, combined that with going over slot multiple times every year, I firmly believe we would be sitting on a jaugernaut right now.
Now the CBA will probably change the comp rules, we’ll be able to catch up with everyone much much later and we’ll suffer for it for a decade.
I really think we were so blessed to have an Owner like Joan Payson who allocated the money (pre-draft) to sign the Ryan’s, Koosman’s, Gentry’s, McGraw’s, Jones’ Seaver’s ect.
Tell me the truth ’62. Can you possibly imagine the Wilpon putting the Mets into the drawing for Tom Seaver? Not a chance in hell. Could you see the Wilpon collecting baseball talent like Casey, Weiss, Johnny Murphy, Bing Devine, Whitey Herzog, Gil Hodges, Yogi Berra? Please.
As blessed with committed and smart ownership as we were in the inception we have been cursed with it since our last Championship and so has anyone working under their self inflicted contraints.
T, WHEN U HAVE A COMPLEX ORGANIZATION, HAVING MULTIPLE GOALS INTERNAL AS WELL AS EXTERNAL IS S.O.P. SOMETIMES THEY ARE NOT CONDUCIVE TO BEING INCLUSIVE OF EACH OTHER. SUCH AS OMAR’S EXTERNAL GOAL OBVIOUSLY WAS SUCCESS DURING THE 162G SEASON WITH THE BEST OPTIONS HE WAS ALLOWED TO AFFORD WHILE, AS U RECALL, HIS INTERNAL GOAL WAS A GENERALIZED YOUNGER & MORE ATHLETIC GROUP OF SOLUTIONS WHILE HAVING A LASTINGS MILLEDGE ACTUALLY WORKOUT AS YOUR PREDECESSORS ENVISIONED AS BEING FLOYD’S REPLACEMENT CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN OPTIMAL; HOWEVER, IF YOUR INTERNAL SOLUTION CRAPS OUT YOU’VE NO CHOICE; BUT TO TURN OUTSIDE TO GUAGE YOUR ABILITY TO ACQUIRE A YOUNGER, MORE ATHLETIC(THAN FLOYD) ALTERNATE REPLACEMENT SOLUTION, IF YOU ASCERTAIN THAT THE ASKING PRICES FROM OTHER CLUBS FOR THEIR OPTIONS IS BEYOND WHAT U DEEM REASONABLE, THEN YOU EVALUATE WHAT U DEEM AS THE MOST SUITABLE ALTERNATIVE AS YOUR NEXT INTERNAL SOLUTION, WHOMEVER THAT IS. WITH NONE EVIDENTLY DEVELOPED ENOUGH OR HEALTHY ENOUGH TO BE A PATCH TO THE EXISTING HOLE IN LF; THEN, U LOOK FOR THE MOST REASONABLY PRICED TEMPORARY SOLUTION THAT PERHAPS IS MORE PALATABLE THAN FORFEITING A SEASON DUE TO ONLY 24 YOUNGER ATLETICS, SO U RELUCTANTLY SIGN A POTENTIAL TEMPORARY SOLUTION U EXPECT ONLY MODEST CONTRIBUTIONS(100G) FROM DUE TO HIS AGE & RECENT INJURY ISSUES HOPING TO GET RELIABLE PRODUCTION DURING HIS HEALTHY PERIODS.
T, IT’S OBVIOUS I’M IMAGINING WHAT I SEE AS A LIKELY THOUGHT PROCESS FOR ANY GM BE IT MINAYA OR YOUR BELOVED McILVAINE AS NEITHER HAS MIRACULOUS POWERS THAT CAN ENTRALL OTHER GMs INTO GIVING AWAY THEIR SOLUTIONS DESPITE WHAT RUMORMONGERS ARE CREATIVELY SEWING OUT OF WHOLE/HOLE CLOTH. WAS MOISES ALOU A FULFILLMENT OF HIS PROMISE FOR YOUNGER/MORE ATHLETIC? ABSOLUTELY NOT. WAS MOISES ALOU PRODUCTIVE DURING HIS ACTUAL LIMITED, LESS THAN ANTICIPATED PLAYING TIME? ABSOLUTELY! IMO, ALOU WAS AN ATTEMPT @ MINAYA LEMONADE, UNFORTUNATELY THE LEMPONS WERE TOO SOUR.
T, I DO NOT BELIEVE AN EXTENSIVE MiLB INVOLVEMENT IS A PREREQUISITE FOR BEING A GOOD GM; HOWEVER I WOULD CERTAINLY VALUE A PROVEN GIFT @ TALENT EVALUATION MUCH HIGHER THAN AN EXTENSIVE MiLB ADMINISTRIVIA EXPERIENCE RECORD.
PART OF YOUR PROBLEM IS ACCEPTING THAT YOU ARERN’T THE ONLY ONE TO SEE A SOLUTION TO A PROBLEM AND ACCEPTING THE POTENTIAL THAT IF THE “RIGHT” SOLUTION AS U ENVISION IT IS NOT CHOSEN, IT ISN’T NECESSARILY BECAUSE IT WASN’T SEEN OR IF SEEN, REJECTED FOR NO PROPER REASON.(A PRIME EXAMPLE IS THIS, WE ALL KNOW OMAR WAS GIVEN THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO ACQUIRE TEN 35 YR OLD DERECK LOWE FOR 4Y/$48M WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN A GOOD DECISION? I DIDN’T THINK SO, DID U? ATLANTA SUBSEQUENTLY AGREED TO THOSE TERMS WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN OUTBID UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
YOU’D BE MUCH BETTER OFF ASSUMING YOUR SOLUTION WASN’T JUST OUTRIGHT MISSED; BUT RATHER IT WAS PURSUED & FOUND TO BE UNWORKABLE FOR REASONS UNBEKNOWNST TO U.
T, I FIND IN LIFE IT’S USUALLY MORE ACCURATE TO ASSUME I’M NOT THE ONLY SMART ONE IN THE ROOM & IF OTHER SMART PEOPLE DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY IT’S FOR A GOOD REASON THAT I’M NOT PRIVY TO & MY SOLUTION WASN’T AVAILABLE AS I THOUGHT IT WAS. LOOKING AT THINGS WITH THE ATTITUDE OF “HE’S STUPID” OR “HE DOESN’T KNOW WHAT HE’S DOING” IS VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. BETTER TO APPROACH IT AS, “I WONDER WHY HE WOULDN’T HJAVE DONE IT THIS WAY OR THAT WAY. ENVISIONING THE REASONS WHY IS PREFERENTRIAL TO LOOKING TO CAST ASPIRTIONS.
THINK OF IT THIS WAY, TO DATE, NO ONE ACTUALLY KNOWS WHY EXPERIENCED CAVALRY OFFICER & ONE TIME YOUNGEST GENERAL EVER IN THE US ARMY GEORGE ARMSTRONG CUSTER CHARGED THE SIOUX, SACRIFICING HIS COMMAND, AT THE LITTLE BIG HORN.
SOME THEORIES BLAME HIS ARROGANCE & EGO.
OTHERS, POINT TO HIS EXPERIENCED SUCCESSFUL INDIAN CAMPAIGNS & HIS KNOWING OF THE SIUOUX #s FROM HIS CREEK INDIAN SCOUTS/SPIES & THAT BY & LAERGE CAVALRY REGIMENTS WERE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO CONFRONT INDIAN ASSAULTS EFFECTIVELY THAN INFANTRY COULD, WITYH GENERAL TERRY’S INFANTRY ARMY EXPOSED FOR ANNIHILATION, A DAMAGING CAVALRY BATTLE MAY CREATE ENOUGH TIME FOR TERRY TO ESCAPE(AS HE DID).
SO, T, NO ONE KNOWS WAS CUSTER AN EGOMASNIACAL FOOL OR A SELF SACRIFICING HERO/MARTYR? CURRENT PC HISTORIANS WILL TEND TO LEAN TO THE FORMER RATIONALE.
IT SHOULD ALSO BE NOTED THAT ONCE BEFORE(GETTYSBURG) CUSTER THWARTED DISASTER FROM HIS CAUSE BY ENGAGING A SUPERIOR FORCE(JEB STUART’S ENTIRE CAVALRY ARMY) @ HANOVER,PA, BY CHARGING FORTH SACRIFICING HIS LONE MICHIGAN BRIGADE. THE ENSUING FIGHT, TIED UP STEWART BEYOND HAVING ANY CAPACITY TO JOIN THE GETTYSBUTRG FIGHT THUS THWARTING; LEE’S PLANS FOR A CAVALRY EVELOPMENT FROM THE REAR WHILE PICKETT’S INFANTRY CHARGED THE UNION FRONT. A MOVE MILITARY HISTORIANS CLAIM COULD HAVE TURNED THE ENTIRE BATTLE & POTENTIALLY CHANGED THE RESULT OF THE WAR.
WE’LL NEVER, EVER KNOW!
Tag I’m going to answer here is it is going to be the last comment I make on this three month old attempt to revise history in McIlvane’s favor.
Minaya as Asst GM WAS the Scouting and International guy. All Phillips did was make the contracts in FA and wheel and deal with the other GMs. He left ALL of that to Minaya because it was what he is best at!
Phillips tried to trade BOTH reyes and Wright almost the same second Minaya left for Montreal.
If that is not proof enough that Minaya was the driving force for them being here and NOT Phillips who tried to get rid of them as soon as the one guy who DID like them was gone then you are a VERY lost cause and wish to see History in your own special and distirted way!
Point is Minaya was the main PROSPECT and SCOUTING force during the Phillips era!
Thats why he was brought in because Phillips wasn’t interested in reading all the mounds of paperwork needed to evaluate talent that was not yet proven. Note that Omar told the scout to sign Reyes not Phillips.
If that fact alone doesn’t tell you that Minaya pretty much ran the scouts and evaluations all by himself then there is no point in talking to you or taking any of your points on team building seriously!
I know you have harped on that point because you got killed in the comparison of McIlvane’s wins to Minayas and wanted to change the subject.
I also know two weeks from now you will try to discount what Minaya did again hoping no one remembers this exchange and for that reason I will bookmark this and resort to cut and paste until you get tired of replying to a clipboard!
This conversation is DONE has been done and disproven for weeks now!
Sorry to punch all those holes into your first attempt at being published in a blog, perhaps if you could get off your broken record and attempt to make McIlvane not look like the guy who took 4 years and did NOTHING! And came up with something else you might get published again!
T, PERHAPS I’M WRONG; BUT YOUR LITANY VIS A VIS McILVAINE SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE PRAISING HIM MORE FOR ALL HE DIDN’T SCREW UP RATHER THAN FOR ANYTHING HE ACTUALLY DID ACCOMPLISH FOR ANY OTHER GM, I’D AGREE THE BARAJAS DEAL WAS A NIT BEING PICKED; HOWEVER FOR A GM WHO MADE HIS OWN NATIONAL NOTERIETY BY EARNING THE MONIKER “TRADER JOE” AS HIS ONLY “BIG” TRADE FOR THE METSIES OVER MORE THAN 3YRS IN OFFICE AS WELL AS HAVING DONE A MISERABLE JOB IN TRAINING HIS STAFF IN HIS OWN PRIORITIES(PHILLIPS)
i’VE MADE NOTE OF YOUR DODGING THE GEN K DESTRUCTION ISSUE ON HIS WATCH.
T, THER’S A DATE, THAT ELUDES ME THAT PERHAPS U CAN ELINGHTEN ME WITH;
WHEN WAS THE F/A COMPENSATRION FORMULA ALTEREDE TO INVOLVE DRAFT PICKS? U MAKE REFERENCE TO YEARS I DIDN’T REALIZE WERE UNDER THOSE GUIDELINES. PLEAS ADVISE SOONEST, THANKS.
’62. Happy Easter to you and your family. Tell Reyes advocate that I was asking for him.
I’m not sure about the FA compensation rules but I know Mcilvaine made the right call on Sid Fernandez and wound up with two high draft picks when he signed with Baltimore.
I didn’t dodge the generation K thing ’62. Was it the farm Director? That believe it or not was a “gentlemen” by the name of Steve Phillips. Was it Dallas Green? Bad luck? FL State abusing Wilson’s arm? Izzy’s immaturity? Pulsipher’s head? Who knows, I don’t.
The farm director in those days was Steve “prospects will get you fired” Phillips until Jack Z (Mariners GM) took over in 1996.
As for your denigrating Mcilvaines trading acumen please keep in mind that he got Bernard Gilkey for nothing when he was 29 years old and Gilkey put up the best year a Met LFer ever had. Heresy I know but it’s still the truth. Got hurt the next year but at least we had a terrific LFer for one year and it didn’t cost us a #1 or #2 pick.
He also traded for John Olerud who put up the best year a Met 1B has ever had.
He also traded for Carl Everett who went on (after Phillips traded him) to have several really good years too. Much better than any RFer we have had since Strawberry.
He also signed Lance Johnson as a plan B non comp free agent and got one of the best years a Met CFer has ever had.
All these players were not only good offensively they were also good defensively as well. In addition they all got MVP Votes in Met Uniforms (except Everett)
That’s right ’62. Gilkey 14th in MVP 1996, Lance Johnson 18th in MVP 1996, Olerud 12th in MVP 1998 and Carl Everett 17th in MVP 1999 and only one guy traded Quilvera Veras for these players ever did anything and we spent zero draft choices to get them and again they were good on the defensive end too.
Not quite sure what there isn’t to like about Mcilvaine. He was adding all around players capable of having years that were around 12-20 best in the league, giving up nothing to get them and holding onto Alfonzo, Ordonez, Hundley, Payton, Preston Wilson, Izzy, AJ Burnett and drafting guys that Phillips didn’t even sign like Garrett Atkins, Jeremy Guthrie and David Dejesus. You have to admit that’s a lot of depth at least that would have supported a full scale assault on the NL including the JUDICAL USE of free agency and who’s to say that HE couldn’t have made the same trades with the Marlins that Phillips did? After all how many teams could the Marlins even have been talking to that could have absorbed that salary?
Don’t you see what Tag’s problem is 62?
Everything good that happens is credited to the GM ALONE, Anything bad that happens is the assistants!
So all the BAD of McIlvane is Phillips fault, All the good is McIlvane’s!
Anf ythen he takes that disparate credit system and applies it to Minaya.
All the GOOD of Wright and Reyes is Phillips ALONE and all the BAD is Minaya’s since he was just an Asst scapegoat on Tags warped crediting technique!
And to Tag, When you explain how 88 wins is better than 97 I’ll go back to responding to your other comments
HAPPY EASTER TO EVERYONE & MAY ALL YOUR EGGS BE IN MULTIPLE BASKETS COLORED ALTERNATING BLUE & ORANGE!
ANYONE BELIEVE TERRY THOUGHT IT BETTER TO WATCH ANOTHER LOSS FROM HIS WARM OFFICE THAN FREEZE HIS ASS OFF IN THR FRIGID DUGOUT? NOW THAT WE WON, CAN WE EXPECT TC TO CHALLENGE COX’ RECORD FOR TOSSOUTS? LOL HE IS VERY STUPIDSTICOUS