You reach for any straw to attribute to McIlvane and try to nullify anthing Omar did.

I’m done trying to convince you your in fantasy land!
What proof do I have that Wright and Reyes belong to Omar?
MORE PROOF than you have to say they weren’t and much more proof than you have that ANY of McIlvane’s draft picks were attributable to him than if I used your criteria and said they were all cashen!

None of those HOFers you speak of played a single game for the Mets…remember he failed to sign them!

This is done, any further discussion on your part will be ignored because I don’t really see a point in trying to make one FAILURE 10 years ago looking better than one recent one!

They BOTH failed and it is pointless to talk about 1990′s when it is currently 2011!

All I know is if McIlvane was so great then why did he get fired and why isn;t he still running a ML team?

Spending 15K for Omar was nothing. He didn’t bat an eye over spending 36 M for Perez or 24 M for Castillo. OKing a 15 K signing bonus for a guy he never saw is not as huge a deal as you like to make it out to be.

Anyone at all could have done that.

Omar was the Sr. Asst GM and International Scouting Cooridinator. His focus would have been on the 25, 40 and outside the country in that order. How does that make him responsible for drafting Wright?

Chances are Minaya had as much to to with drafting Wright as he did with other guys you claim he was responsible for drafting when he wasn’t even working for the Mets. Guys like Kazmir, Evans and Burnett.

Omar’s drafts as Scouting Director in Texas weren’t very good and his drafts in Montreal produced only one Major Leaguer in 3 years. He flat out blew 2006 and 2007 and immediately got rid of the guy (Bove) who ran the 2005 draft and replaced him with the guy (Terasses) who blew 2006 and 2007.

Your a child Metsie, making it up as you go in the face of all available facts and trying to assign credit from one person to someone you like better.

In the interest of fairness, something you are not even remotely acquainted with, Mcilvaine did have the 4th, 5th, 4th 1st, 20th and 21st pick when running Cashen’s drafts but also in the interest of fairness that in no way accounts for having the difference between Phillps coming up with a total of 4 Major leaguers (that you somehow claim was because of Omar) in 6 years while Mcilvaine came up with 22 including 5 of whom merit HOF consideration as do 2 other Mcilvaine picks from his drafts in SD.

The book on Omar’s draft will be open for another decade (as with his IFA signings) His Met legacy will rest on those results. Only the 2005, 2006, 2007 draft class could have reasonably be expected to have produced anything at the ML level by now but already one of his draftees from ’08 has looked good up here. 2005 produced Pelfrey (1/9) Niese (5), Parnell (9) and Thole (13) A few more good solid drafts like this one would have kept us from running out of players and making some of the bad free agent signings we did. 2006 only produced Dan Murphy, 2007 was a complete bust that Duda, Lutz and Gee could make up for to some extent but the real shame of that draft is the (2) 1st round busts, the (2) 2nd round busts and the (2) 3rd round busts and the flat out handing over of our # 1 draft choice for a 40 year old LFer when we almost certainly could have had both!

Time will tell on Omar’s 6 drafts here but if you think they’ll be producing 5 players worthy of HOF consideration I’d have to say I disagree. If you add to that Omar’s IFA’s all I can say is I hope so! Time will tell. What we do know is Mcillvaine produced plenty for us in his time here and wears a big ring on his hand partly because of it.

His trading prowess is what fueled our rise under him from 59 wins to 88 and he didn’t get there with the quick fix and crash plan of Phillips and Minaya. There is also nothing to suggest that he wouldn’t have been able to benefit just as well as Phillips did from the Marlins fire sales and every reason in the world to believe that his drafts would have been ten times as productive as Phillips’.

If he hadn’t been let go he probably adds another ring to his collection, at least, and no way he crashes like Phillips did in 2003 or Omar in 2009 and ’10 because he would have had depth AND quality and had it here when he needed it, not 3 years down the road cause he gave away 7 early round picks and failed to get back 7 more when they were right there to be had.

He also would have made sure we had a RFer and a second basemen by now.

You are the only one who thinks Jay Payton and Paul Wilson are quality players. Thats the problem here!

Compared to Wright and Reyes they are both scrubs!
You know this or you wouldn’t have tried to argue so much that the ASSISTANT GM had nothing to do with picking them!

Why do you just say things that aren’t true? A few of his picks were in the first round, 8th round, many were in the teens, twenty’s, all over. You refuse to acknowledge that Mcilvaine had great drafts while grasping for the straw of early first round picks. This is no more true and just as easily disproven as your other false assertions.

You and you alone are always right, even if you have to make it all up to be right. The search for the truth falls by the wayside, people’s good work gets assigned to others even on that one and only time you stated you were wrong about something in the same sentence you immediately claimed I was wrong about something because you said so. Some proof, some debate, some objectivity.

It takes a tender chicken to never even once acknowledge that another person has a valid point.

The fact is one year of Mcilvaine’s draft (one that we indisputably know he had huge input into and impact on as opposed to guessing if someone was involved) is better than all of your swami’s drafts put together, either as a GM or Asst GM, or Scouting Director.

Thank you for never admitting that anyone else ever has a valid point.

Omar didn’t have any top overall picks
We were winning from the get go of his GMing because he did well with 9th 20th picks in the first.

Pretty impressive list of talent selected by Mcilvaine wouldn’t you say?

Keep in mind this is not fantasy. Mcilvaine WAS the guy that ran the draft for Cashen, I’m sure Cashen had a large say but Mcilvaine was the actual guy who ran Cashen’s drafts.

Now why weren’t more (all) of Mcilvaines picks signed by the Wilpon?….Hard to say but all a scouting Director can do is identify the talent, he cannot allocate the funds to sign it.

He also in three years in SD drafted Todd Helton and Derek Lee among others.

Just 4? Is that your answer?

How about all those guys he was responsible for us drafting BEFORE he left for SD to GM and 3 years later constituted the “NO FARM” (your words not mine) he had when he eventually replaced Harazin?

How convenient to leave out all those failures on his resume!

You do realize your the only one drinking this McIlvane kool aid?

If he was so spectacular then why hasn’t he done it somewhere else?

Is it because everyone knew McIlvane didn’t really have a clue as to what was good and at best drafted MEDIOCRE which you now are trying to sell as credible!

Well you want Credible how about Two “REPEAT” All stars, a near ROY, not to mention the guy who brought Pedro Martinez, and many other TOP STARS on the MLB into the league?

McIlvane would have a hard time picking a HOF player even if he was standing IN cooperstown!

I’m done with your fantasy. If you think McIlvane was a good GM then your credibility has taken a hit.

Here. If you want to credit Omar with a good IFA signing here’s one. 1998, Nelson Cruz. Phillips traded him in 2000 for Jorge Velandia. Had he not we might very well finally have a RFer.

You said CAN’T MISS!

Well Ike Davis is a hell of a lot more CAN’T MISS than Jay Payton!

And Wright and Reyes who you don’t want to credit because it screws up your McIlvane pedestal bull are BOTH potential HOF!

They have been to the All Star game twice each!

You basically want to cut out all of MciLL’s bad, All of Omar’s Good and call one better than the other!

It’s called CHERRY PICKING and I thought you were above such debating tactics but I guess not!

ASSISTANT GM is not just INTERNATIONAL!

Murphy was not a back up. He was a starter. Santos and Sullivan weren’t back ups, they were organizational players. Minor leaguers.

Really after Schneider’s 2008 dumping Castro with only Santos, Cancel and Casanova in the farm for a team expecting to contend is lunacy.

It really didn’t matter who got hurt. The only player we had to back up anyone at all was Pagan and no one even knew how good he could be or if HE could even stay healthy.

By year 4 there should have been a credible bench of guys who could step in and contribute something. Non tenders, itching for a chance, a Plan B free agent who could cover both corner infield spots and wanted the chance to win a ring. A RH hitting corner outfielder to come in for Murphy in the 8th and platoon with Church but the money was all spent. Believe it or not 30M of it went to Wagner, Putz and K-Rod. Thirty friggen’ million and our starters were really nothing more than backups themselves. Church/Francouer – Schneider/Santos – Castillo – Murphy.

Is this what you get for 150 M?

Tell you the truth Vinny, even with no injuries this team doesn’t make the post season. Maine, Livan, Redding, Figgy, Nieve and Ollie starting 93 games? and please don’t give me the injury excuse here because Livan and Redding were DFA’d cause they were terrible and everyone knows (or should know) your going to need to have 5 extra starters either in the pen or stashed in AAA.

This team was put together miserably. You had 4 great hitting position players, one established starting pitcher, 2 closers, a rookie set up guy with one pitch, a rookie third basemen in LF and no credible bench players save for Pagan who hadn’t even established himself to that point.

Bad job. With or without injuries we were going to be league worst offensively at 4 positions and don’t tell me about Castillo’s BA or OB. He can’t do anything when someone is already OB so what he does do is far less significant and of those 4 league worst offensive players 2 sucked at Defense.

Injuries are just a convienent excuse but in Omar’s defense I will say that I thought Schneider and Church really let him down.

Cora, Murphy, Sullivan, and Santos are backups. What do you expect bakcups to look like? Sullivan didn’t do that bad for us anyway. Murphy was okay i guess. and what’s funny is, Cora was the backup for the Redsox’s before he was on the mets.

And there’s a reason why these guys are backups. because they aren’t good, If they were any good they would be starting!!!!!!!!!!.

As it was Cora took over for Reyes, Sullivan in LF, Murphy went to 1B and Santos caught and Church was traded for Francouer. No matter how well Pagan did he wasn’t going to make up for a lineup of Cora, Murphy, Sullivan, Francouer, and Santos. In addition Parnell showed he wasn’t ready, Redding couldn’t keep us close, Reed never got on the field.

Beltran to me was the least likely guy of the one’s who got hurt and he was the only one to have a credible back up. That’s a function of the farm as well as the bench. Now maybe it’s unfair to expect those positions to all have capable backups from your own draft and IFA’s in your fifth year but if you have a team considered World Series ready you have to back a 35 year old first basemen with SOMEONE, provide a solution if your rookie 3B man doesn’t make it in LF, Schnieder repeats his bad 2008 (why’d we cut Castro anyway?) Church doesn’t put it together. At least get a platoon mate for him.

This whole combination of stars and scrubs never works.

I mean come on. No other 90+ win team in the entire league?

The average NL has over 3 90+ win teams. 2006 had only one. Us.

The bottom line is it was unsustainable. We did everything we could. Threw money at it, traded prospects for it, gave away draft choices, rushed up anyone who might be able to do something but it was no longer salvageable.

The parts just didn’t work anymore. By the time we got them they only had a couple of years in them. We’d fix one leak and find two more, fix those and discover a few more. We couldn’t get replacements up here quick enough and the one’s that didn’t come in the early rounds are just as questionable as the one’s who had little shelf life to start with when they got here.

We might be OK with a little tinkering here and there but is OK really what you want when you spend more than everyone else?

Now if Beltre or Martinez got hurt, they wouldn’t have scored many runs – i don’t care how much depth they had.

I don’t get your point here. You think if the Mets had better backups to Beltran and Reyes they would have done something? we did have a good backup to Beltran. Angel Pagan did a good job, right?

I don’t care who we had as backups or how much depth we had that year. we were going to bad. We lost three of our best hitters, and the only guy left was Wright, who had the worst year of his career.

Their too stupid to figure it out. The reason we have not been able to get competent players for certain positions is because we give away our draft choices and then draft poorly when we keep them. We’re also not signing enough top shelf IFA’s.

These are insignificant financial reinvestments in their own business which will save lot’s of money, lots of heartbreak and make them lots of money, year after year.

Every business has to examine how they’re doing, since the Wilpon wont the fan has to interceed and point it out for them.

I don’t feel that’s overly ambitious. But to do that you have to plan ahead. These constant boom and bust roller coasters leave the fans disgusted, pissed off. With big expectations come big dissapointment. That’s what we’ve been handed over and over. If the team wasn’t shooting themselves in the foot so often the press and media wouldn’t be turning us into a laughing stock every year.

People wouldn’t give a 2nd thought to renewing ticket plans cause they’d WANT to be here. We’d be impervious to the Media. You think John Henry and Theo got a hard time in Boston last year? No, because they have credibility because their not pulling a bufoon act with Alomar, Mo, Coleman, Saberhagen, Bonilla, putting rookie infielders in LF, not putting guys on the DL, missing 3B, publically embarrassing players, Bernazard, trading crown jewels for crap, giving away #1 picks for 40 year olds and designated hitters, selling steroids and running gambling dens in the clubhouse, bleach, firecrackers, masturbation, assaulting senior citizens. I mean where does it end?

One imbecillic, bufoon move after another and while we have spent the most of any team in the League we still have no 2B man or RFer. That’s something most baseball teams would try to address.

The Yankees did. Not with Babe Ruth perhaps but at least with a guy that is overall at least average. He makes the same as Castillo. They got their second basemen by signing him for 250,000 5 years before they needed him. That’s nothing remarkable, it’s just competence. Their fans feel that the NYY are competent. Met fans don’t feel this way.

Yeah you can pull the old standby, sign a Jason Bay and watch a few monkeys run to the ticket window but the act has gotten stale, the public’s caught on. They’ve seen the Yankees evolve from a circus act into a buttoned down highly efficient machine. Not that it always works, it’s still sports, anything can happen but it’s not them on Roosevelt Avenue with two foot long explosive shoes and a funny nose on anymore, it’s us, and has been for a while.

It’s time to pay the price and finally get serious. Start looking at every facet of the operation and see where we can improve. Where we’ve done well and should do more of, where we’ve failed and why. Then we’ll be able to put the processes in place that will lead to a consistently good product and avoid the continuinous shooting of ourselves in the foot.