Meet The Econo-Mets!

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• Metsie March 30, 2011 at 10:05 am

  There was a lot of turnover but look at what really turned.

  Perez and Castillo – well probably a no brainer here. Throw Maine in for good measure but it will be interesting to see if he comes back to the ML at some point as he has a shot to get it back and be a successful pitcher again. Thats really a wait and see thing.

  But the rest?

  Most of them were the guys we all thought were bright spots on a very bad team!
  Feliciano, Misch, Acosta, Evans, Carter, Takahashi, Valdez.

  Now that is not an attempt to say Sandy didn’t do well. But you have to admit it is a bit too early to tell. If Beato has a horrible season we are as stuck with him taking up a roster spot as we were with Castillo. I don’t expect that to happen but it is a possibility!
  Emaus is another case where he didn’t really play better than his competition to win the job but just well enough to put his lack of options into play in keeping him. If Emaus should be replaced by lets say Havens mid season it will be yet another roster spot held hostage by a Rule 5 player you can’t cut/DFA or you will lose him.

  As for what will Sandy be able to do next year with 3 times the money? Well he can’t seem to fit the guys he did get for 10 mil without losing other equally good if not promising players. The only thing that will change with money is the price range you can buy in. He will still have to get rid of someone to fit them on the roster.

  Moneyball is a fine approach WHEN you have no money.
  But it has been proved not to do much in the way of building a winner when it is used as a team building philosophy. Oakland hasn’t won a thing since the Bash Brothers which is 6 years before they started using Moneyball (1995).

  Boston doesn’t use it, the Yankees sure don’t. Can’t say the Phillies who have committed huge amounts of money to their rotation use it.

  As for Sandy stating that he was not going to spend all the money that comes off the books well that doesn’t mean he is going to play money ball. And he couldn’t possibly spend it all wisely in a single year as there are never that many good Free Agents available in a single year to do that!
  Take this year for an example if you want proof. What would you get for 60 Mil if you had it this year. Cliff Lee (OLD pitcher heading toward the injury twilight of his career) and who else? Werth?

  What I expect Sandy to spend that 60 Mil on is a possible resigning of Reyes and a replacement for Beltran if one actually exists in FA. Maybe a Pitcher and an Ace again if one is there to be had.

  More likely though is he will not spend that himself and merely make some trades that take on other player’s salaries, whose contract is not 4 or 5 years left and only one or two. So if that player blows up he is not stuck paying 3 years of a contract the player can’t live up to like Omar did.

  The most he will shell out is about 40 Mil of that 60. 20 Mil to a possible reyes deal and another 20 for Pitching or Beltran replacement.

  And we should all be fine with that if that all he spends.

  Cause while I think Moneyball is not a recipie for success I also do not agree that just because a guy is the top FA in a year, that he is really worth the going rate of a top FA! Nor worth the extra years you have to promise just to get the next three good season!
• jay'smets March 30, 2011 at 9:06 am

  Job well done. Hopefully it translates into a positive season. If injuries are kept at a minimum, this team can be a surprise. Lets Go Mets.
• t agee March 30, 2011 at 10:51 am

  Bright spots on a bad team? Misch? He only pitched 37 innings, Acosta 41 Valdez 58. The biggest bright spot for the bull pen was how deep some of the starting pitchers went in their starts. That’s what allowed the pen to carry Ollie and still pitch so few innings. Feliciano was let go due to age/effort and to get a draft choice that may provide something long after he is gone. Carter had only 180 AB’s because he couldn’t play the field and Evans only had 37 AB’s because he played the whole year in Buffalo.

  Takahashi was a bright spot perhaps as was Pedro but both had to go. The Really bright spots on the team from last year are still here. Dickey (resigned for the same thing Takahashi got Plus a club option), Pagan, Niese and Davis. Those guys added to Pelfrey, Reyes and Wright were the really bright spots. The guys that left were more like soft lighting.
  • Metsie March 30, 2011 at 11:20 am

    And what has Beato done to date? Not much, had a good spring but has yet to prove he can be a full season plus for this team.

    I’m not saying that all of them should be kept and guarded. But they all have trade value (aren’t you the major proponent of trading decent players that don’t work for you to someone who might want them and get something else you need in return?)

    But they had some intrinsic value and we could lose them for nothing (Misch cleared waivers I believe)
    One thing to lose players who did well (regardless of how many innings you think they pitched how many will Beato pitch in that TOO FULL to keep bullpen?) but to get nothing for them or even attemopt to turn them into an option on Beato or maybe some 2B minor leaguer who can replace Emaus if he turns out to be the type of guy you want to leave exposed to rule 5!

    Your the one who has gone on ad infinitum about wasted picks and minors so why would you support Sandy doing that now?
    While they may not be major players for us what do we both agree is the proper action to take regarding guys who are good enough to make the team but can’t be kept for roster and contractual reasons?

    Didn’t we agree that they should be traded for something else we COULD use? Like maybe an option on Beato, Emaus and maybe something else that could be sent to the minors and traded for something later?

    Those Bubble ML players are precisely the type of player you make those trades with.
    And we are prepared to lose them to the waiver wire in the name of keeping players someone else deemed wasn’t worth keeping. And have proved nothing but the fact they had a good spring with us which when you look at it the only one who actually had a BAD spring with us was Ollie!
    And maybe a few guy who we had option on.
• Dennis Ribant March 30, 2011 at 12:49 pm

  Thank you Metsie for calling out agee or his worn out and now not even consistent postings. Its good to see someobody besides crazy Harry call him out for what he is!!!!!!
  • Metsie March 30, 2011 at 1:13 pm

    Well Dennis lets get some things straight…
    Harry is a NUTJOB! LOL

    Tagee is a smart guy who got on a naive kick about building a team via the draft exclusively which has never truly worked for anyone who has tried it.
    Not even the 86 Mets had success until they went out and got Hernandex, Ray Knight, Bobby Ojeda and Gary Carter!

    It is unrealistic to think you can hoarde draft picks and make a winner. You can build a decent core to BUY AROUND but it will not succeed by drafting and trading low impact picks on it’s own.
    And despite what Tag saying is true about the core he fails to realize that once done you HAVE to sign those FAs which cost you draft picks (against your initial philosophy of hoarding) in order to win the big game!

    If anyone wishes to find a common thread in MY philosophy the CHIEF component is BALANCE! NEVER have a narrow minded view or limited options. In War plans are only good until the first shot is fired. You need to be flexible enough to change at a moments notice and adapt to the conditions that present themselves.

    Yes you can’t waste picks on stupid things but at some point you have to weight the loss of the pick to the immediate gain of the player that cost you that pick.
    This is precisely what Omar did when he signed Wagner. He was trading a hole in the future for a WIN NOW.
    It didn’t work. Win NOW NEVER seems to work unless you are ALREADY winning NOW and merely trying to pile onto the good you already have so you come at the league with overwhelming force! The Phillies are attempting that this very year. They already were winning and bought Lee to aquire overwhelming force.

    The problem I think breeds from the philisophical differences is that some have a much lower expectation and definition of the word GOOD!

    Tag believes McIlvane was a good GM yet I say he never won a damn thing!
    Some believe moneyball made Oakland GOOD despite them also not winning a damn thing!

    In my book the YANKEES are good! They have dominated not only the league but the playoffs and world series as well!

    They didn’t get there by hoarding draft picks and making low level signings all the way they built a core and then spent on players to make that core successful!
    Just as the Phillies have this year!

    They key to everything in life is balance and while good drafts and good trades is half the battle going and getting the big star player who makes them all better is a very important component to winning now and in the future!
    • t agee March 30, 2011 at 2:49 pm

      Metsie, I am not against selective free agency, nor am I against trades. What I am against is primarily drafting poorly. Secondly I am against using a #1 pick for position players expected to play everyday. Thirdly, I am in favor of developing IFA’s and lastly I am in favor of letting guys go and collecting early round draft choices to replenish the team.

      Most of the best players in MLB come from the first, supplementary round and 2nd round of the draft or from International free agency.

      The position player plays his best all around baseball between the ages 24-32. I know that there are plenty of exceptions to this rule but by enlarge this is true and will probably, going forward, will be even more true than it is now.

      Relying on post prime guys to play everyday, play well and be able to stay on the field has not worked out for us.

      Back in 2005 I was under the impression that we were going to develop our own younger position players who possessed top shelf talent, develop them carefully and put them in the best position to succeed but the way we went trying to win now prevented us from getting those players.

      Many IFA’s busted, stagnatted or were rushed up here before their time.

      Wagner was a good example of effective use of free agency IF we had turned him into the 18th and 38th best players in the 2010 draft. We didn’t. Boston did.

      The two picks that Philly got because of losing Wagner made them better than if they had resigned him. The supp pick Cardonis helped get Blanton and the #1 we gave Philly (Drabek) turned out to be the biggest piece in their acquiring of Halliday. If Glavine didn’t have a year left who would we have playing 1B right now? Murphy? How about if we had signed Hampton who would we have at 3B? Would we have outbid the Cubs for Aramis Rodriguez? Probably. Gone 7 years for him and regretted it for the last six and then defended the move with the old standard “well who else were we going to get to play 3B?”

      Who could have believed back in 2005 that come 2011 we would only have one guy on the team we developed with a semi reasonable chance to make the All Star team?

      Maybe 6 years is a little unreasonable but even come 2013 or 2014 who do we have that even has a slight chance? I say Mejia has a chance. Perhaps one of Familla, Urbina, Harvey, Cohoon or Matz. Slight chance to Havens. Guys like Puello, Vaughn, Den Dekker and Ceccilini are in everyone’s system. Most don’t make it, some are 4th OFers. After that comes a whole host of guys who can be useful but are flawed in some way. Duda, Murphy, Thole, Gee, Parnell (one pitch), Nuwenhaus. Even our best prospect (Flores) isn’t even playing a position in AA he’s expected to handle up here.

      Granted if Fern and Havens had forced their way up here things would look a lot different but that would really just be window dressing. Obscurring what happened to us because everyone we were counting on did make it. That rarely happens. It’s the result of going with a skeleton approach of one super prospect for each position and too much can happen in between.

      It’s really the expensive post prime for every position free agent that has been proven to not work and the high ceiling developed through the farm position player that HAS been proven to work. Delgado was great for most of 3 years, at least offensively, Alou was great for 100 games, El-Duque 50, Pedro 80 games but look where we are now?

      Beltran was a once in a decade, elite, 5 tool, solid professional, great lifetyle, gold glover, silver slugger with 4 prime years ahead of him and looked what happened even to him? One down year, 3 great years and 3 injury plagued ones.

      It has also been proven that a mix of free agent, home grown and traded for with prospects, produces the best starting rotation.

      The bench can be filled with younger guys who pair well with your starters (L/R – good glove/good hit) and the bullpen from a combo of your own failed starting prospects, trades, type B FA’s, and waivers/non tenders. Of course getting the right mix is incredibly difficult when your hamstrung from a roster and payroll standpoint something that doesn’t happen when your roster is mostly players under team control.

      I see nothing wrong with the expensive type A FA starting pitcher or two or even the occasional Beltran for 5 years. What I have a problem with is the reach out of need free agent position player who not only cost you a draft choice (or prevents you from getting one by resigning him) but also either can’t stay on the field or underwhelms when he does. The shelf life on 32 + year old position players is not long and when you have a whole bunch of them on their last contract, not a good idea.
      • Metsie March 30, 2011 at 4:19 pm

        They had 5 guys….How many are on a roster again dude?

        ONE FIFTH of that team was homegrown and the rest were all bought and paid for, Yes SOME trades like for A-Rod where they didn’t pay a dime for quite awhile but now they pay full boat!
        • XtreemIcon March 30, 2011 at 4:47 pm

          The Yanks paid a ton for A-Rod right off the bat.
          • Metsie March 31, 2011 at 8:10 am

            Not on the first aquisition X, Texas paid over 60 Mil of the remaining salary
            Once he was RESIGNED the Yankees then paid full boat.
            Basically the Yankees got him originally for around half price. Maybe a little over half.
            Pretty good deal considering.
        • t agee March 30, 2011 at 5:54 pm

          First of all they had a lot more than just 5 homegrown players.

          What they had was 5 homegrown stars or superstars.

          They also had a farm that allowed them to acquire younger veterans who weren’t on their last contract, that they didn’t have to over pay, that still had a few years of their prime remaining, that weren’t one dimensional, that didn’t break down, that fit into their core, not formed it.

          Almost their entire team was either from IFA, the draft or traded for from the farm.

          Just because that doesn’t fit in with your ideal doesn’t change the fact one iota. They learned by 1990 FA is a trap and to use it sparingly.

          I have no idea why your bringing A-Rod into anything. Their farm is what got them him too and their resources allowed them to keep him but the NYY had already won 4 World Championships before he got here.

          They had already gone to the playoffs (or would have if there wasn’t a strike) TEN straight years.

          A-Rod was a part of continuing their success, not originating it. It had to start somewhere and it did. Right in the farm system.

          Almost every single player in those early years was signed as an IFA or drafted by the NYY or traded for by prospects from the farm and only a couple of type A free agents.
    • t agee March 30, 2011 at 3:11 pm

      Explain to me again Metsie how the NYY got their “core?”
    • t agee March 30, 2011 at 3:43 pm

      Bernie, Posada, Jeter, Pettite, Rivera That’s the core Metsie is speaking of. O’Neil (30)was a trade from the farm (Kelly) Brosius was a PTBNL after the NYY traded Kenny Rogers, Tino (29) was a trade from the farm. Charlie Hayes (place holder) was a trade for a PTBNL. Boggs was a non comp free agent, Knoblauch (29) was a trade from the farm. Cone was a trade from the farm, El-Duque an IFA, Clemmons a trade from the farm. Wells cost a #1 pick but the NYY got a better one by letting Wettland go plus a supplemental round pick too, so even when they did spend a draft choice they actually got a better one and another one.

      Sorry. The NYY that have been to the playoffs 15 out of the last 16 years and won 5 World Championships were built through the farm, either by keeping guys or getting guys with their prospects. True they were able to afford guys by using their finances but we could have done the same thing. We had to spend a lot more to get guys to come here, we also gave up 6 # 1 picks, four #2 picks and 3 # 3 picks since 1998 and our players were not only more expensive, they were also older and those older, post prime players is what has formed our core for the last 20 years.

      Compare that to the players (and how they were acquired) that has formed the NYY core since the mid 90′s.

      They tinker with free agency here and there but their early success was built entirely on the draft and IFA.
      • Metsie March 31, 2011 at 8:13 am

        All those trades were based on teams dumping salary not on the strength of their farm!

        What exactly are the numbers of a player to be named later?
        How high in the draft is a PTBNL taken?

        They developed 5 good guys on the farm (and I’ll bet many of them were not drafted and instead trades made.)
        The rest of that team is all High Money aquisitions usually with a team that needs to shed payroll and didn’t care what Minor leaguer they got in return.
        • t agee March 31, 2011 at 11:14 am

          Metsie Are you trying to change the facts to fit your position. That’s childish Man. You know perfectly well that Jeter, Bernie, Posada, Rivera and Petite were all homegrown Yankees. Either drafted or IFA. They also had other homegrown players too. Gerald Williams, Jim Leyritz, Pat Kelly, Andy Fox, Rueben Rivera, Ramirio Mendoza, Scott Kamenicki, and Mark Hutton. That’s about half of a 25 man roster.

          The NYY did make some wise trades during this period and just like us with the Marlins were able to get much better talent than we gave up. They really only gave up a couple of highly regarded prospects (Russ Davis and Sterling Hitchcock for Tino and Jeff Nelson) Many of the trades were for players in their prime for minor leaguers you never heard of. Cone cost nothing. Kind of like what Mcilvainne was doing about the same time. Hayes they got for a PTBNL, Brosious WAS the PTBNL.

          They also signed a fare amount of free agents, like Rains, Gooden, Boggs, Straw, Key but they didn’t give up any picks to get them and didn’t give them huge long term contracts either and these guys instead of being the core, had to fit in around the core. Big difference.

          The NYY recent 15 years of success was built by the farm and international free agency and then added around by trades from the farm and filled in around that with free agents almost all of whom didn’t cost any draft choices at all.

          In fact the lessons they learned in the 80′s have resulted in the NYY actually receiving back more draft picks they they have spent on free agency. From 1990-the present they have actually gotten back 3 more picks then they spent. That’s one of the reasons they have a consistently good farm system even drafting 25-30 every year. Of course going over slot allows them to get the best talent even at 25-30 but that’s organizational commitment.
          • Metsie March 31, 2011 at 11:35 am

            How many of them were actually drafted by the Yankees Tag?
            You say half the roster but in order for that to be TRUE homegrowns EVERY PLAYER had to be drafted BY the Yankees.

            How many actually were and not just some guy they managed to get from some other team that drafted them?

            In order for your philosophy to hold true ALL of those homegrowns had to be drafted by the Yankees.

            And they were not!
            • t agee March 31, 2011 at 12:37 pm

              They were Metsie. All the players I listed were either draft choices or International free agents with the exception of Jim Leyritz who was an amateur free agent (not drafted by anyone) and signed as such by the NYY.

              Pettite, Jeter, Posada, Gerald Williams, Andy Fox, Pat Kelly and Scott Kammenicki were drafted by the NYY.

              Bernie, Mariano, Ruben Rivera, Mariano Mendoza and Mark Hutton were International free agents signed by the NYY.

              In addition NYY farmhand Roberto Kelly (IFA) brought Paul O’Neil here and Sterling Hitchcock (draft) and Russ Davis (draft) brought Tino and Jeff Nelson here. Three NYY farmhands brought David Cone here.

              So that’s seven drafted players on their 1996 World Championship Team, five International free agents and 6 players they either drafted or signed that were traded for 4 of their main contributors plus an undrafted free agent they signed.

              All told 13 original NYY farmhands and 4 key pieces obtained by their farm.

              There were also a few NON COMP free agents and a few other trades and only one Type A free agent (Rogers) they had to give up a pick for.

              Bottom line 17 can be traced to their scouting and development.
            • t agee March 31, 2011 at 5:45 pm

              Secondly Metsie, my philosophy isn’t that ALL 25 players have to be drafted or signed as IFA’s.

              My philosophy is that you have to have a strong farm system to form the basis of your team from within by drafting the best players and signing the best international free agents. You then use the surplus for your bench, bullpen and to trade for younger pre free agent veterans where you don’t have anyone and after 2-3 years you let those younger veterans go free agent and scoop up the picks, all the while keeping your core intact and then adding to it or replacing it from those additional picks and more international signings.

              Occasionally you sign a Type B free agent, grab a rule 5 or a non tender or add a Type A perfect fit free agent but you keep the core either by retaining, adding to or replacing your homegrown players by drafting and signing the best amateur talent in the US through the draft or the rest of the World by signing IFA’s.

              This keeps you from having to settle for whoever happens to be a free agent every year, allows you to trade prospects for younger 25-30 year old established players and keeps your team young, hungry and motivated.

              That’s my philosophy.
• Dennis Ribant March 30, 2011 at 12:55 pm

  OP: How can anyone, even the most ardent supporter of Sandy Alderson give him credit for a remarkable job? The season hasn’t started and you are making enormoous and incredulpus assumption about a bunch of mediocre ball players. Lets start with the bench… An infielder who is useless as a PH because he can’t hit at all, a back up catcher who was lazy too start and now hurt for who knows how long and his replacement is barely a AA player. Most back ups can field well, this guy os a lousy bat and a lousy catcehr. Then in the outfield we have the career backup for losers Willie Harris and his clone Hairston. So much for youth being served, Two pieces of garbage and we are bragging about it. Now on to those awesome bullpen acquixitions. 2 guys from the wrost bullpen in history, great mop up who suck in the clutch. and one aged and very untalented lefty. This is great stuff? And the rotation… Not one but two big time injury risks…. I think you need to wait 6 months before you give your very presumptive and probably invcorrect accoldaes to the man who really has a mission to downsize the payroll and try to save the Wilpons from having to sell the whole thing.
  • Nester March 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    You’re ranting like a lunatic and not making any sense. All Alderson had was 10 million dollars and with that he acquired two starting pitchers a brand new bench and a bullpen overhaul. If you dont see the value in that and are unwilling to give him some credit for accomplishing the impossible, then you’re just not being objective.
    • Metsie March 30, 2011 at 1:19 pm

      Well isn’t it a bit premature to say he aquired anything good until we see how they do in the regular season?

      I mean was Bay a good signing once the season was done?
      he sure was a good signing to everyone the day we got him in fact many claimed we HAD to sign him to stay relevant.

      If we are going to judge guys like Omar on hindsight then we should wait to see how well these moves look from the same perspective.

      Because if Young and capuano both wind up missing half a season to injury those signings will be judged based on that not what they did in ST!

      NOTE: I am not saying they are bad signings just not about to claim them as good OR bad until I see what they actually do when the games count.
      • Berbalerbs March 31, 2011 at 11:35 am

        I agree that it’s crazy to claim victory right now, without game 1 of the season played. But to carry on like Dennis did above is equally as crazy and stupid.
  • Bayonne Mets Fan March 30, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    That’s Craig Lerner for you, he is the ULTIMATE SHILL for anything saber and anything Moneyball,

    Remarkable? See me in 2 months. Let’s first see if Chris Young holds up, Brad Eamus hits major league pitching. Let’s see what happens with the bullpen. It looks like the Mets did sure up the bench nicely but let’s SEE first before we declare anything that Alderson did as REMARKABLE.

    But that’s Craig Lerner being Craig Lerner, post after post after post he just shills for Alderson and all things saber/moneyball. He should go write for Amazin Atitudes
    • JerryG15 March 31, 2011 at 7:49 am

      How many articles have you actually written?

      You sure to bash a lot, but haven’t seen you with the brass to write one. It’s much easier to critique then actually do….
      • Bayonne Mets Fan March 31, 2011 at 11:21 am

        critique? That’s ALL YOU DO! You critique mine and others comments. You NEVER add any new insight yourself
        • JerryG15 March 31, 2011 at 12:16 pm

          I response to comments, that’s what comments are for, you bash AUTHORS when you don’t have the guts to write an article, big difference. I don’t ever bash authors (except Pomes).
          • Bayonne Mets Fan March 31, 2011 at 12:25 pm

            Well I’m going to continue to call out authors so get accustomed to it. Just start posting your own original ideas instead repeatedly commenting on my opinions of the authors.
            Let’s see what YOU think about things.

            And saying “well why don’t you write your own blogs” is just an awful response. That’s like me saying “well why dont YOU run for president”, “why don’t YOU start your own radio or tv talk show”, “why don’t YOU audition for that part if u think u can do better”, “why don’t YOU become a weatherman if u always complain about them”

            Besides, as i’ve said here many time i’m a terrible writer and don’t have the patience to commit to writing blogs”. I’m a commenter not an author.
  • t agee March 30, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    To expect miracles in one off season without the owners checkbook is as unrealistic as it gets.

    With a team expected to compete for a title we had a backup MIer who couldn’t hit or field. Now at least we have someone who can field. We also had GMJ, Jacobs, Cattalonotto, and Reed who couldn’t do either and others who could only play on one side of the ball, Carter, Tejada, Feliciano, Francouer, Blanco, Barajas and Santos.

    We even put a rookie infielder in LF as “the plan.”

    We also had starters who couldn’t do anything. Castillo, Maine and Perez.

    Young and Capuano are least an attempt to provide a credible starting rotation something we haven’t had around here in at least a decade and out of necessity done at the least possible cost.

    Don’t you think he could have done quite a bit better if he didn’t have 46 Million dollars tied up in K-Rod, Bay, Perez and Castillo?

    I mean what do you want Alderson to do? Pay for the players out of his 401K?

    I know it’s been the plan around here for a very long time but the fact is you just cannot fix all your teams needs every year with whoever just so happens to be available.
    • Metsie March 30, 2011 at 2:18 pm

      To expect Miracles even WITH an open checkbook is just as unrealistic.

      If you had all the money on the planet to spend who could you buy this year that would ensure us a WS or long term comeptition for it?

      We could have spent 100 Million this offseason and it would not have guaranteed a thing!

      And to try and fill every need via the draft is a 10 year proccess that by the time you have succeeded you are going to lose half of it to FA anyway!
      • t agee March 30, 2011 at 3:09 pm

        Well Metsie most GM’s (and all good one’s) work on both at the same time. Maybe that means living with a guy if need be for a year or two, getting a placeholder if need be but your never going to get the best players if your giving away your 1st and 2nd round draft choices, unless your getting some of them back by letting other guys go. Your also not going to get the best players if you make a lot of mistakes in the draft or IFA market.

        The free agents we have signed through the last 6 years have lasted anywhere from 100 games (Alou) to 7 years but only 3 of them great and 3 of them injury plagued (Beltran) That doesn’t afford you the time to add to them.

        Every homegrown prospect gives you six years bare minimum. That affords you a lot more time than many of the expensive free agents good or great years do and you can easily get off a guy under team control. Just let him go. No roster spot clogged, no financial considerations, no nothing. Just bring up another guy but that can’t happen if your drafting so poorly or your IFA’s stagnate.
        • Metsie March 30, 2011 at 4:23 pm

          I think you meant each Homegrown prospect that actually SUCCEEDS in the Ml gives you that.

          What is the average playing time of ALL first round draft picks ever drafted.

          It will be somwhere in the area of 6 months!

          Drafting is no guarantee of getting a good player.
          At least with the Free Agency you have some idea that the guy IS a major league player.

          Less waste of money especially considering how you admit that you have to go overslot and over pay on a maybe to have any success!
          • t agee March 30, 2011 at 10:01 pm

            Metsie Paying an extra 500,000 to go over slot is hardly a fair comparison to paying Alou 15 Million for 100 games or Castillo 24 Millon for 3 rotten years.

            Even the guys you draft who don’t pan out could always be turned into a Piazza, Olerud, Delgado or Santana and the one’s who do a Leiter or Hampton. How do you think we got those guys? Cause someone didn’t like our prospects? Sure Piazza, Leiter and Delgado were primarily salary dumps but we still had to give Dombroski something. Having something credible in the farm would have prevented us from signing Castillo and Perez. We didn’t so we sucked at 2B and one spot in the rotation and still had to pay 60 Million dollars.

            Jeez. We could have gone WAY overslot EVERY YEAR for 30 years with that money.

            Your just arguing to win your point, not for making and listening to reasonable points.

            Comparing the waste of millions upon million of dollars every year to investing a million or so extra in top shelf quality instead of those who are just happy to sign for slot cause their less talented than the others.

            Letting other teams get the best players while we get the guys who WERE the best players and then pay them the most and give up our draft picks is no way to field a winning baseball team.
            • Metsie March 31, 2011 at 8:34 am

              “Even the guys you draft who don’t pan out could always be turned into a Piazza, Olerud, Delgado or Santana and the one’s who do a Leiter or Hampton. How do you think we got those guys?”

              Dude we got guys like Delgado, Leiter and Piazza because Florida was desperate to make a point to Miami and sold off their entire franchise for horse feed!

              Your assertion only works if you have a dumb GM willing to make that trade!

              really has nothing to do with our drafting ability nor to do with how good those players were. It is all about the TAKING advantage of an idiot GM who was more concerned with his Salary than the quality of his team!

              Santana has been a very BAD move for the Twins. Why did they do it? Money mostly!
              Olerud was another money deal, Toronto was not going to be able to resign him and opted to get another player they could keep. Olerud was at the time having major issues against Lefties. The change of location helped Olerud reclaim some of what he had but even that was not enough to warrant us keeping him.
              • t agee March 31, 2011 at 12:13 pm

                Why shouldn’t we have leveraged our financial advantage with other teams financial weakness?

                Inherent in every trade of an established player for prospects is salary relief AND quality of prospects. Not just salary relief.

                The teams able to absorb a salary like Delgado’s for instance (15M) are small to begin with. Some of the teams able to take on that salary already have a first basemen, so the pool of teams that can both take on 15 M AND need a first basemen limits what offers a GM in that position can get. Looking at it this way Piazza, Leiter and Delgado performed way better for us than most of the free agents were were bidding for against numerous teams and allowed us to keep our draft picks.

                Everyone knows that prospects aren’t a sure thing, that’s why you get more of them when you trade a veteran.

                Dombroski was ordered to slash payroll. Do you think he wanted to ship Delgado and La Duca here? He would probably have loved to accept a different and better offer from somewhere else but he probably didn’t have anyone else that could both take on the payroll (20M) and had a need at both Catcher and 1B. At the end of the day he had to get rid of the financial commitment and take whatever he could get. That worked out a lot better for us than when we bid against other teams for free agents and then have to pay them more to get them to come here and give up our draft choices too.

                Olerud was not a money deal. It was a trade to make room for Delgado. Mcilvaine bought low on a very talented two dimensional player who was in his prime (29) and would be playing FOR his last contract rather than on it.

                Mcilvaine also knew the player very well since he had drafted him in 1986 (27th round) when he was the NY Met Scouting Director.

                Santana did bring back 2 potential starting pitchers and a young CFer and he went to the NL instead of helping the NYY or BRS knock the Twins out of the playoffs. Calculated move, didn’t work out for them but when your dealing with another teams weakness you can frequently extract a very good player for some prospects, but you have to have something credible in your farm to do so.

                When your bidding against other teams for a free agent (or under the impression you are) You are getting someone older, more expensive, with a longer contract which will typically be his last one. When your trading for a John Olerud, Piazza, Leiter your getting a younger guy, playing FOR his last contract. But you still need to have something to trade.

                Big difference. That’s what the NYY, Boston and Atlanta do.

                Trades of the sort we’re discussing here are frequently about saving money for the seller. Free agent deals are all about getting the buyer to pay as much for as long as you can get him to. The trade for a youngish veteran pays off the best in on field results due to his younger age and contract status and allows you to put money elsewhere to double the impact.