Of course RBI is related and therefore CO related!
Thats the point of a CORRELATION!

An RBI will ALWAYS result in an RS!
Will an OB always relate to an RS? NO!

Well if it can’t PRODUCE as RS all by itself then it is not the CAUSE of the RS and by fact NOT CORRELATED to RS in anyway shape or form!

It doesn’t correlate BETTER than any other stat! It does not CREATE or DRIVE the other stats! It is an accumulation that is COINCIDENTALLY ADDED in the proccess of doing the things that really and truly CAUSE the run to score!

Stepping into the batters box is JUST AS IMPORTANT as OBP is to RS! You can’t do one without the other!

You can’t score a run without also increasing OBP.

Just as you can’t walk 10 miles (RS) without walking 5 first!(OB)

Walking 10 miles FORCED you to walk 5 miles Twice!
But the fact you walked 5 miles did not DRIVE, CAUSE, or FORCE you to walk 10!

OBP is nothing more than a BY PRODUCT of good hitting.

In your view marriage would be the leading CAUSE of divorce cause you can’t get dicorced without first getting married!

So is marriage the cause in that scenario too?
I think you need to watch the games a bit more and just look at how much WASTED OB doesn’t score!

10 Hits in a game and only 3 runs scored. if your looking for production you really need to look at a stat that is more consistent at indicating the RS your likely to get. Such as RBI!

remember RBI get credited to the hitter not the runner as RS does.

The runner didn’t CAUSE the batter to get that RBI. And without it the runner would be stranded!

CAUSALITY is what statistical analysis is all about!

Finding the action and contributions that helps you score runs and win games! Quantifying it and trying to get more of that trait on your team!

And in the end you know what you find out?
the STATS mean squat! It is the makeup and mental toughness of the player that drives the numbers, not the other way around!!

in 1986…wally backman’s BEST year was when he ONLY had 36 BB…27 RBI…18 2B…67 Runs…a .385 SLG %

but he also had a .320 batting average which led to a .376 OBP…almost ALL of that was attributed to BASE HITS, not walks

not to mention the things that dont show up in stats, ( breaking up DP’s, running over infielders and catchers, getting in your SP’s face when he is losing his control..communicating with ur rookie 1B when a right handed hitter who loves to go the other way is up at the plate and ur pitcher is going for the outside corner…u see the sign because ur at 2B, and u relay it over to ur 1B )

communication and preparedness is a HUGE part of playing a game.
none of that shows up in a stat. Cal Ripken Jr for example was big for his position..often CALLED the game from SS so he of course knew where to position himself, which increased his total chances…

this is why u have to WATCH the games….if that wasnt necessary, there would be no need for scouts

OF course you could have a team that gets on base at .400, slug at .300, and be below average in runs while leading in OBP. My quibble is with the alleged value of “productive outs.” I like players and teams who get on base rather than make outs (even productive ones). Doesn’t everybody?

I think if Werth can get 128 mil for 7 years, Reyes might be able to crack 100 mil….especially when Philadelphia, Boston, LA, the Yankees, and the Mets (aka damn near almost every major market team ) may be in need of a SS.

its hilarious when u see met fans try to downplay reyes, beltran, and santana..

ted berg just came out and said that the santana trade was not a steal.
lol

take two disparate stats and mash them together and come up with an arbitrary number!

If you really want to mash them together then you should weight the OBs in the first place when calculating OBP, Not make two seperate stats and then ADD them together and divide by two!

This is why wOBA is better than OPS…it’s really just lazy math!

But again it is about getting on base and is the goal of a team to get on base or to score?

You can’t assume that just because you get on base your GOING to score!

This is the bias I was referring to before!

All of these IMPORTANT metrics are predicated on the belief that OB drives RS. Well how can something that does not CAUSE RS drive it?

When you hit a home run does the fact you touch first give you a free pass to run to home plate?

or was it the act of hitting the ball over the fence that allowed you to not only touch 1B but all the others until you get to home?

CAUSALITY is probably the most important operator in any statistical analysis.

What happens at the plate determines if you get on base, how many bases and if you are going to score or not.

Don’t believe me then show me an example where a guy got on base and then did something to allow himself to score without any help from a batter or a fielder.

If you can’t cite an example where there was no help involved with a guy from second scoring then I say say you just proved getting on base didn’t cause any runs to score someone else did!

As for the correlation to OBP and RS well I will repost for you what I have posted in the past regarding the correlation and importance of OBP…

You will see that there are OTHER stats that correlate much better than OBP does.

2010 team RS/RBI/OBP
Yankees 1/1/1 (Both sides correlate)
Boston 2/2/4 (I win one)
Tampa 3/3/10 (thats two!)
Cincy 4/4/6 (Thats Three!)
Texas 5/7/5 (you win one)
Minny 6/5/2 (My correlation is closer to actual than yours! thats four!)
Philly 7/8/13 ( Again my ranking is closest to correlation thats five for me one for you!)
Rockies 8/6/7 (I’m gonna give you this one! I still lead 5-2!)
Blue jays 9/9/26 (OHHH that had to hurt! I lead 6-2! but EPIC fail for OBP!)
White Sox 10/12/11 (I’m generous today I’ll give you a match! 6-3!

2009 Same stuff!
Yanks 1/1/1 Same as this year! another push!
Angels 2/2/3 (score now 7-3)
red Sox 3/3/2 (Another one for me! 8-3!)
Phillies 4/4/14 (Ohhh abother Blue jays incident! 9-3 my favor!)
Twins 5/5/5 (hey another push!)
Rockies 6/8/7 ( 9-4 oh I feel the heat now!!!)
Tampa 7/7/6 (Sorry charlie 10-4)
Blue Jays (oh no!) 8/6/15 (You hate them don’t you? 11-4)
Brewers 9/9/8 ( Sorry close but I was closer 12-4)
Rangers 10/10/24 (OUCH! bet you wish they were more like the blue jays! 13-4!

2008 lets try it one more time maybe third time is the charm for OBP.
Texas 1/1/3 (All Mine! I lead 14-4)
Cubs 2/2/2 Hey a push!
Red Sox 3/3/1 ( 15-4 my favor)
Twins 4/4/9 (16-4 Oh the agony!)
Tigers 5/6/7 (whose your daddy? RBI! 17-4 now!)
White Sox 6/5/2 (Oh well 18-4 in RBI correlating better than OBP!)
Indians 7/7/11 (19-4 and only 3 more teams to go in 2008!)
Phillies 8/8/15 (20-4 and you must feel pretty foolish by now!)
Mets (hey!) 9/10/8 (I feel bad so will give you this one despite both being equally off by one 20-5)
Yankees 10/9/6 (21-5)

So RBI spanks OBP in RS correlation 21 times to 5
of those 21 I correlated EXACTLY with RS 15 times!
Of your 5 you correlated EXACTLY with RS ONCE!

If OBP correlated to RS then the Blue jays would be no where near the top 10 of RS two years running!

The causality is key. it is not the ON BASE that causes the run to score it is the Hit or what happens in the PA that directly correlates to RS.

A guy on second can not force or cause a batter to do something that would score him. Once he is on base he is not an operator any longer. the Batter is!

Since a batter can produce a run without getting on base before he does it or without anyone on base at all, the batter not the runner is the cause. And since a batter can make a Sac Fly that ALLOWS a runner to score again the PRODUCTIVE OUT is the reason for the RS with only marginal help from the runner. yes the runner contributed running to the RS but without the batter hitting the Sac Fly the runner could not advance without some help from the defense via error or fielders choice! No matter what happens in a game a runner can not CAUSE a run to score without some HELP be it offensive via the batter or defensive via the other team.

I know many read these Saber books and take what is in it as gospel but you have to understand the scientific approach that is required for statistical analysis and identify that the bias of the analyst can skew the truth and numbers to favor any statement they wish to make. Most of the sabers are derived to make OBP the most important stat. But it is not a CAUSE just a CONSEQUENCE of other GOOD THINGS (Mostly good PA or ABs)

OBP correlates because hitting and walking BOTH cause a guy to get on base. Good teams hit good and as a result walk more because pitchers pitch around them!

You can compile a team of high OBP players but without the BA being good they will not continue to be high OBP players and they will not score a lot of runs either! High OBP team with bad RBI will strand most of their runners! And Pitchers will make them swing instead of walk which negates their ability to get OB!

Someone needs to drive in those runs! Someone needs to HIT! If you can’t hit then they will not walk you they will pitch to you and get you out! So a high OBP player with no BA will no longer be a high OBP player and therefore will not score all those extra runs!

OBP is a product of GOOD HITTING! Sure you increase it with a walk but the ability to walk is proportional to your ability to hit. Hit well you walk a lot, hit badly and no walks for you!
The Yankees lead the league in OBP because they hit for average and hit for power and when a pitcher faces them he does not throw strikes but tries to pitch around him.

Sure you can pick a number you like and find some way to say it is a CAUSE of something else. But unless you look at it from an impartial view with no prejudice you will ultimatly come up with the answer you want not the right answer!

It is the BA that drive the OBP, not the other way around!
And a productive out that scores a run is WAY more of a contribution than just getting on base and waiting for someone else to contribute!

Cause one actually changed the scoreboard. The other helped but did not FORCE or CAUSE the run to score.

for uillustrating whast’s wrong with the Reyes perception in NY. Not living up to his potential yet? held asgainst him? Can u please explain in what Universe, players are supposed to reach their potential BEFORE entering their PRIME produvtivity years?

Clearly it is relatively evident thet players like the annointed Seaver & the ultimately disappointing Gooden peaked early Seaver @ age 25, Gooden age 21;

However, for this example as history proves Seaver’s best year(’69) was behind him when dealt & considering a player’s prime productivity years are between age 27-32, contemplating dealing Reyes in his 28th year(2011) would be more foolhardy as, in his case, it’s obvious the BEST is YET TO COME! Dealing potentially the 3 best years of a significant player’s career away is decidedly more destructive than dealing him after(see Nolan Ryan) his best has been produced

management def does not appreciate Jose Reyes.
They have mismanaged minor injuries 2 years in row that became huge ones.
the contract he signed back in 2006, one day before David signs his was a tremendous slap in the face. David with less service time signs a 6 year 55 mil contract with a 1 year team option making it 71 mil, while Jose signs a 4 year 23 mil contract with a 1 year option making it 39 mil..

55 mil guaranteed vs 39 mil guarenteed

( doesnt surprise me that one of reyes agents is a former mets PR intern )

now when it comes to the fans…I think neither one is really appreciated.

if David/Jose played in KC, LA, St. Louis or Chicago, those fans would be idolizing them. u certainly dont see those fans making fun of players with thick accents, “los mets” jokes, or making fun of guys b/c they are nice and polite.

sorry, but the past few years has left me with a real bad taste in my mouth w/ regard to met fans.

delgado/reyes/beltran rank as #1/#2 in terms of their production as Mets all time. yet those were the 3 main players fans were blaming all the time.

case in point…

batter 1 – walk
batter 2 – walk
( double steal )
batter 3 – walk
batter 4 – K
batter 5 – infield pop-up
batter 6 – K

OBP for the inning is a stellar .500 w/ 2 SB
but with a batting average = .000
u score NO RUNS

this is why using isolated stats are so misleading…

Don’t ever be so naive as to credit superior intelligence with a higher veracity score see heads of failed fin’l institutions of late Collapse.

2010
Runs: 13th
wOBA: 13th

2009
Runs: 12th
wOBA: 11th

2008
Runs: 2nd
wOBA: 4th

2007
Runs: 4th
wOBA: 4th

2006
Runs: 3rd
wOBA: 4th

You get the idea. The stat is already out there, it’s just a matter of learning about it and incorporating it. Here is a primer:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-wOBA?urn=mlb-208135

That said, I believe Bill James admitted that he was too negative on the Stolen base early on (80s) because he wasn’t thinking situationally enough. Stealing with an 0-2 count and 2 outs in front of Alex Cora is a different type of risk than stealing with no outs and Barry Bonds behind you.

If Jose Reyes is going to have a .330 OBP, then he is going to have to move down in the lineup even if he is wearing skates.