Roberto Alomar’s Advice To Jason Bay

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• t agee January 7, 2011 at 9:41 am

  Every time you sign a free agent you can count on 1 bad year and 1 injury plagued year at least. Count on it.
• The Coop January 7, 2011 at 9:46 am

  ^What T-Agee said. Though it seems like it’s an acceptable excuse with the Mets. There’s always a transitional year. Transitional, Shmansitional. You never saw Burnett, Sabathia or Teixiera have a transitional period in the Bronx. That excuse doesn’t fly there or anywhere else, just in Flushing. I hope that attitude goes away soon.

  I digress…I do have to say that Jason Bay is the x-factor in this season — and the absence of Carlos Beltran in the lineup hurt him more than any other player…and yet, they never played a game together! Jason Bay really had no protection in the lineup, how ironic he got sidelined for the season after Beltran returned (then Beltran wasn’t even himself until September). I think he will have to bounce back – nay, he HAS to bounce back.
  • Harry C January 7, 2011 at 9:51 am

    He had no protection inPittsburgh and he had a big left field yet he managed to productive. You take away his transition excuse correctly, but give him another one? He had a horrible year. End of subject. Excuses? He can make his own.
    • The Coop January 7, 2011 at 9:59 am

      This is a chicken or egg argument about his time in Pittsburgh. He was a solid producer in Pitt, no doubt, but there were times their line up was formidable, such as Xavier Nady or Freddy Sanchez giving him “protection” in the lineup, but also that I mean – it’s Pittsburgh. Chances are, pitchers weren’t going to waste time trying to get him out when there were plenty of other crappy players to do that with! Perhaps his success there was more for being the best on a crappy team – there’s also some misnomers about the type of player he was there. You seem pretty knowledgeable Harry C, so I won’t insult your intelligence by bringing up that he was never a high BA guy there (oh wait kinda did lol).

      In Boston, the opposite was true. He probably saw better pitches because of the protection in the lineup. Protection was different here – he had K artist David Wright, Jeff “what the hell is OBP” Francoeur and Jose Reyes who had an identity crisis at the beginning of the season plus coming off an injury.

      I’m not giving him an excuse – just saying that he needs to step it up this year. Chances are (and I heard him say it at an event I was at), he knows he needs to as well. It depends on a healthy lineup and a change in attitude. When your management thinks losing (attitude and games) is acceptable, chances are it’s going to permeate onto the field. I’m sure we can break bread over that one.
      • t agee January 7, 2011 at 10:31 am

        There is a huge difference in mindset between trying to get the big contract and trying to live up to the big contract.

        Trying to live up to the big contract and coming to a new team that has so many other guys who have done the same thing and failed due to injury, poor play or a combination of those two things and see those guys still hanging around, maintaining a roster spot, doing very little or nothing at all. Unwilling to even help the club and themselves by taking a step back, regrouping and giving up their roster spot to someone who might be able to help. This clubhouse doesn’t have the attitude neccesary to win. It’s all about themselves and that comes from the top on down.

        It’s one thing to make an error in judgement a sign a guy like Perez and then to COUNT on him as a starting pitcher AGAIN (Pinero signed 2/16 with Anaheim last year) but to allow him to remain on the roster, lounging around the club house, collecting his paycheck while not pulling his weight, well that is just a sad sad lack of organizational leadership and not a place where committment and chemistry have any chance at taking root and flourishing. This is what your new players are walking into. Disjointed line ups, club houses, dugouts how can anybody thrive in this environment? Let alone the new guy with the spotlight on him. I wonder if it was May or June when Bay realized he had made a mistake signing here and was now stuck for the next 5 years. That must have been a good feeling. Sticking it out for the cash, just like everyone else on the roster. Some team. That’s what you get when Ownership doesn’t have the balls to develop their own players and cut loose there mistakes. No balls = no chance. J.Wilpon, we’re tired of waiting for you wake up. Grow a pair.
        • alwaysnextyear January 7, 2011 at 11:58 am

          so because Ollie cam back in July, bay lost his ability to hit from opening day on? BS. For whatever reason he just sucked, and it had nothing to do with Ollie, Castillo, or Jerry.

          and he wasn’t exactly coming from chump change, having just finished an 18mill contract, and he certainly had to be under more pressure stepping into LF in Boston on a contendor replacing Manny.

          So you must be saying that he just didn’t give a crap in NY, since there was actually much less pressure (no contract to play for, no replacing a legend, etc.)
          • t agee January 7, 2011 at 12:22 pm

            Always next year, There was living up to the contract as the new guy, stepping into a cesspool of self interest. Vesting contracts, demotions to the minor league, lack of production from highly compensated players, injuries to key players, ill conceived roster, 5 or more players who didn’t even belong in the Major Leagues, young prospects brought up here before their time, unable to contribute and used in different roles, lame duck manager/GM. Ownership unwilling to cut Perez loose and free up a roster spot (Or a GM unwilling to admit the mistake) wild free swinging hackers and a roster spot dedicated to a DH while we play in a league that doesn’t use the DH.

            Three sources of outstanding contributions (Pagan, Dickey, Davis, Coincidentally 3 players trying to establish themselves instead of trying to live up to the big contract.) are all that stood between this team and 100 losses.

            Willie Mays in his prime couldn’t have come here, put everyone on his back and carried us to the post season, to expect Jason Bay to, well that’s just a little beyond his pay grade regardless of what it is.
            • alwaysnextyear January 7, 2011 at 12:58 pm

              well, those are the reasons that the team had a disappointing win total, and Omar, Jerry and the gang got (deservedly) canned.

              and no, I don’t think Bay having a career year would have reversed all that, although it sure would have gone a long way to keeping them in the hunt!

              I just don’t feel (MHO of course) that whatever went on with the team would be a cause, or justification, for Bay to have his wosrt year since becoming a regular. Ollie sapped his HR power?

              besides, keep in mind that for much of the time before Bay went down, the team was winning (despite him). The real problems did not happen (the whole Ollie mess for example) until after his sucky year was well established, and he was about to go out for the year. in early July, the team was right at a playoff berth in the standings, and they had a big May/June stretch.
      • LGNYM January 8, 2011 at 1:56 pm

        The Mets lineup was still more formidable than Pitt. And Bay’s best yr in Pitt was 2005 which was before Nady was there, and Sanchez wasn’t all that great. That lineup was brutal. And he was great in 2006 as well where Nady only joined the team in the last couple months. Sanchez was good that yr, but I don’t think he really “protected” Bay. I do think Bay probably benefited from being on a loaded team in Boston. But he has succeeded in a bad lineup before. And Wright despite K’ing a lot was vastly better than anyone Bay played with during his best yrs in Pitt.
        • t agee January 8, 2011 at 4:06 pm

          One other thing about the newly acquired free agent besides trying to live up to the contract is their off season doesn’t give them a chance to get properly set for the season.

          Jason Bay signed on Jan 4th, that means he had 6 weeks to find a house, school, pack, move and all the other things involved in relocating before arriving in ST.

          You cannot tell me his off season that year was anything like any of his previous off seasons.
  • LAMetsFan January 7, 2011 at 10:02 am

    I totally agree with you. For some reason big free agents are somehow given a one year free pass when they come to the Mets. Even Mets fans have been conditioned to accept a big dropoff in that first year as if it’s to be automatically expected. I dont buy into that one iota. Did Matt Holliday suffer a big dropoff in St. Louis? And the players that were mentioned by Coop as well? This troubling trend can go all the way back to Bonilla and probably even more before him. In any even it should be unnacceptable and not looked at as some kind of norm.
    • t agee January 7, 2011 at 10:48 am

      LA, their walking into an environment conducive to losing and now well insulated by their hard won wealth and surrounded by other guys who have given in and given up and what can you expect from the new guy. Braveheart speeches in the locker room? One guy especially the new guy isn’t changing the culture in the club house one iota. They get here with the biggest of hopes but quickly learn everyone is on their own on this team. This team has no identity, No Jeter/Posada/Rivera/Bernie/Pettite to fit in with. No common purpose, no sense of TEAM. No identity, just continual chaos.

      A whole team of well prepared young players trying to establish themselves with a couple of well selected free agents brought into the mix can form an team but with no foundation to start with will just collapse into a group of self interested individuals.
      • alwaysnextyear January 7, 2011 at 12:00 pm

        but why do these self interested indivuduals then suck? Wouldn’t they just go out and put up stats for themselves?
        • t agee January 7, 2011 at 1:05 pm

          Always, Their human beings. They become part of the environment in which they live and work. If their work environment is one where every player wants to win, expects to win, IS expected to win and the organization puts them in a situation where they CAN win they’ll become part of that environment.

          Roger Clemmens, fresh off TWO Cy Youngs talked about “just trying to fit in” when he arrived at Yankee Stadium. You ever hear a newly acquired highly compensated NY Met talking about “fitting in?” There’s nothing to fit into here.

          Jeter, Posada and Knoblaugh made a big point about welcoming the arch enemy into the castle. Why? Because they wanted, expected and needed him to thrive if they were going to accomplish THEIR goals. Winning is what was on their minds. Not vesting options, not swinging at the first pitch every AB, not taking up a roster spot while lounging around the club house. Management saw to it that there weren’t any players on the roster who shouldn’t have been playing Major League baseball let alone five of them. Think any of the long tenured Mets welcomed Bay with the same level of expectation that the Yankees did with Clemmons? Think Castillo or Perez did? How about the new guys? Think Thole, Davis, Mejia, Murphy and Parnell did? Even if they did what weight would that carry?

          By this time there should have been a river of talented ready to preform prospects flowing into the club house ready to be led by Reyes and Wright but Reyes and Wright have been surrounded for years with so many guys riding out their last contracts, playing for their own career’s or just flat out too old or injury prone to lead the way and because of that there is no standard that everyone has to be held to. We’ve lost the war due to hiring too many merceneries who are too old and making too much and will always be known for the production they provided for the Blue Jays, Angels, Marlins, Red Sox, Royals, Braves, and Twins. The Mets stand for one thing and one thing only. One last payday.
  • t agee January 7, 2011 at 10:10 am

    Coop, the free agents across the river KNOW what is expected of them. The team they are joining already has veteran leadership that is all about winning. People going there are well aware of that. People coming here see chaos. Guys making a huge money not pulling their weight, not putting winning first. Rookies coming up here not yet ready to contribute, guys that shouldn’t even be playing Major League baseball rounding out the last 5 spots on the roster, free swinging hackers who never take a pitch, hot heads who only care about their vesting options and a place where every failure is met by the injury excuse and every defeciency is met with yet another Wildly expensive mercenery brought in. No wonder this team had no leadership, everyone is from somewhere else and only here for the money anyway. You think it was a good idea surrounding Reyes and Wright with all these self entitled, multi millionaires all these years. If the ownership doesn’t have the balls to develop their own players they cannot complain when other teams players act as individuals. We are not the Yankees, The Yankees have eliminated things that get in the way of winning, we have collected those things and strategically placed them in our own way.
    • The Coop January 7, 2011 at 10:57 am

      Bingo was his name. Or T-Agee was his name – nail on head, as per usual. Another thing is – while I think Jason Bay will ultimately come around – is the idea that the Mets are the bridesmaids, not the bride in the FA sweepstakes. Granted, the whole mercenary/crash-and-burn cycle is not something I am a fan of and am willing to wait it out to see what kind of long-term plans this team will put in place. But someone brought up the Matt Holliday thing – the Mets went after Jason Bay, presumably, because no one else was willing to give him what he wanted, even the Red Sox. Whatever. Not only were Reyes and Wright, Davis and Pelfrey to a lesser extent, surrounded by hacks in the clubhouse, they were also conditioned on the ML team that losing was “ok.” I know, teams will lose, but we all know they never expected to win. Alex Cora, warts and all, was the only one with the brass to say – don’t feel bad for the New York Metropolitans. it’s just too damn bad he couldn’t lead with his bat! (but he’s a good “clubhouse guy” – ha!)
      • t agee January 7, 2011 at 11:12 am

        Thanks Coop. I think we have finally circled the fat cat free agent/trade/scrap heap acquisition to death under the Wilpon error and definitively proven that it will not work.

        Perhaps the Wilpon has already taken note and adjusted his strategy. For all of our sakes I certainly hope so.
        • The Coop January 7, 2011 at 11:16 am

          These crash-and-burn cycles are not good for my blood pressure.
          • t agee January 7, 2011 at 11:48 am

            Coop, These “crash and burn cycles” (GREAT DESCRIPTION) not only take away from any chance of competing now but they make it so much more difficult to compete later too.

            When you look at how Boston approaches the free agent market you see that they pick up guys who aren’t used up, enjoy better production and then recycle them for high draft choices when their contracts are up.

            Pedro, Bay, Victor Martinez and Beltre all returned either a first or 2nd round pick PLUS a supplementary pick which they then use to go OVER SLOT to extract the best prospect possible. They have a continuous prospect flow which safeguards them from injury, keeps them from being dependent on whoever happens to be a free agent in a particular year (“But who else we’re we going to get to play 2B”) affords them the opportunity to get the BEST years of a players career and allows them to make the big trade for an Adrian Gonzalez. They also have motivated free agents to be who are looking to secure one last big contract rather than having already received it.

            Boston also welcomes the opportunity to pick up a type A free agent in July, pay off his remaining salary, pay his buyout and then collect TWO MORE high draft choices.

            They will also pick up a DFA’d impending type B free agent because by offering him arb they’ll pick up a supplementary draft choice next June.

            Since 2005 Boston has had 17 first and supplemental round draft choices. Clearly this is not by accident.

            They continuously pick up players that will have some usable life left in them at the end of their contract and then add prospects to a deep and plentiful farm system. Compare that with all the players we have had since the Wilpon error began that we cannot even give away for anything other than minimal salary relief let alone anything for the future.

            Some people claim that “you cannot rebuild in NY” which is ridiculous. Successful Organizations are constantly rebuilding WHILE competing in the present. The Red Sox weren’t “rebuilding” when they drafted Dustin Pedoria with the 65th overall pick in the 2nd round. That didn’t prevent them from winning the World Series a few months later but it did help them win the World Series a few years later and it sure didn’t force them into making a bad free agent signing because “who else were they going to get to play 2B?”)
            • alwaysnextyear January 7, 2011 at 12:04 pm

              now this I agree with 110%.
  • LGNYM January 8, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    I’m not sure what you expect the Mets to say. It’s not like Bay was bad b/c he didn’t try. The Mets yelling that his year was unacceptable wasn’t going to make him play any better. Sometimes guys just have bad years.

    Besides the great Yankee attitude didn’t stop Texeira from having an off yr in 2010. He was still good, but not relative to his career norms nor worth the close to 20 mil he was paid. And it didn’t stop Burnett from being brutal (though that was pretty predictable…he was a lousy signing).
    • t agee January 8, 2011 at 4:00 pm

      But you cannot tell me that there doesn’t seem to be a different standard that new acquisitions are held to. Mark Texeira was on 1B with two out and a pop fly to shallow RF that 1 time in 10,000 doesn’t end the game and yet that one time that it didn’t he wound up scoring (from 1B) the winning run.

      We have a highly touted rookie called up to the Majors and he doesn’t even run to 1B on an infield pop up.

      Those are only two plays out of many but to me it says an awful lot. You would be hard pressed to find a guy on any other team that would have scored from 1B on that play and you would also be hard pressed to come up with 10 everyday position players who are slower than Texeira.

      In a pennant race against our arch rivals Rickey Henderson gets beat going from second to home with TWO OUT by the batter going from home to 2B where he was thrown out and Rickey’s loafing caused the out to be recorded before the run so it didn’t count WITH a lead and going on contact.

      All though we’ll never know, does any one believe that any of the Yankees are playing cards in the club house during a playoff game?

      The Yankee players police themselves. That’s not what you get when other teams mercenary’s show up here to collect one last check.

      These are just a couple of incidents that came to light, I wonder how many of them there have been through the years
• mike January 7, 2011 at 10:17 am

  Love the Mets.
• alwaysnextyear January 7, 2011 at 11:49 am

  well, the beginning of the decline is a given. only question is can he at least stabalize and rebound a bit to at least give themets a couple years of alomst OK even though wildly overpaid averageness.
  • t agee January 7, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    First comes the cleanup while some things for the future are planted.

    Next comes the subtraction of entitled fat cats and their self interests.

    Next comes the young hungry, non guaranteed salaried players who have to fight for playing time and fight to establish themselves or re establish themselves.

    Next comes the beginning of the harvest, followed by more of the same followed by the realization that we have some pretty good young players here and a well conceived roster, a trade or two and a free agent or two and before you know it a team that won’t cave in to injury and has an answer to lack of production at every position and a farm system that keeps it that way.
    • alwaysnextyear January 7, 2011 at 12:11 pm

      hope so. I think it was pretty clear when hired that a big part of what Sandy was brought in to do was rebuild the organization from the ground up. That was lost quickly in all the chatter about him “doing nothing” and punting on 2011 (not that he actually did nothing or is punting).

      hopefully there is a whole lot of churning under the surface that people aren’t seeing but will lead to positive changes in the future. Actually, the MiL changes should be a continuation, since that restructure started last eyar with Collins replacing Tony B.

      and like you, I can’t wait until much of the crap is culled off the roster after this seaosn (the players sooner, their contracts later!)

      Hell, even if it doesn’t help the payroll situation now, if they manage to dump Ollie and Castillo before the season starts, I am good to go.