29
2010
The Moneyball Mets? I Don’t Think So.
An article by 
I caught a post by Sam Page yesterday entitled the Moneyball Mets, in which he writes:
For the past five years, though, we’ve taken considerable crap from fellow Mets fans, concerned with the harmful spread of “Moneyball” ideas in their favorite sport. We (usually) bit our tongues as people with no scouting expertise shielded their bunk opinions under a non-existent “stats vs. scouting” conflict. The same fans, who most loudly bemoaned the failures of Omar Minaya, denounced our specific criticisms without the slightest hint of irony.
Yet, the Mets have now hired the man Moneyball is actually about. Nobody protests.
I kind of snickered a little bit, and was about to hit the back button when I saw the name of our site Mets Merized in the first few comments. Naturally, I had to investigate. It seems a few of their readers wondered what Mets Merized thought about the new Moneyball Mets. That’s fine, I respect the fact they care to know my position, but remember that this is just my opinion and I don’t speak for our other 30 bloggers, half of whom would probably disagree with me.
The Moneyball Mets? Well… it’s a baseless conclusion.
You see, Moneyball is not about Sandy Alderson at all. It’s too bad because if it were, I would have loved to have seen Ed Harris cast in Alderson’s role for the movie version. Moneyball is all about Billy Beane and the Oakland A’s under his tenure.
Apparently Moneyballers are having a love-fest over the soon to be official announcement of Sandy Alderson as GM, but methinks doth celebrate too prematurely.
Let me tell you the little I’ve learned about Alderson in the past month. We all know about his impressive run as the general manager of the Oakland A’s, and nobody can question his integrity and accomplishments during and after his Oakland days. I am extremely proud that Alderson, a former US Marine, will be running the Mets beginning today. Things are going to get better with Sandy now calling the shots.
But lets get back to Moneyball…
Alderson turned to sabermetrics for help in 1995 because the new owners ordered him to slash payroll. And when I say slash, I mean slashed to the bone.
Unaccustomed to running the team with such low resources and no more open checkbook, Alderson was looking for any kind of edge he could get. He believed he found that edge when he stumbled upon a book by Bill James and his new sabermetric stats.
The joyride of the late 80′s, which was built on lavish spending, was coming to an end and Alderson needed to find a way to continue keeping pace with all the other high rollers in the American League.
While implementing this new found magic, Alderson didn’t get the effect he was looking for and the Oakland A’s went on to lose 77 games in 1995, 84 more losses in 1996, and finally 97 losses in, you guessed it, 1997.
It was after that season that Alderson split the scene leaving his trusty side-kick, assistant GM Billy Beane, firmly in charge of a last place team with an MLB worst pitching staff that finished with a 5.84 ERA. So much for that.
To Beane’s credit, he ran with those sabermetric principles introduced to him by Sandy Alderson, and Beane would go on to become the number one poster boy for the sabermetric movement. Beane eventually led the A’s back to respectability, but it was he that did it, and he alone.
The truth is that the book “Juiced” by Jose Canseco had more to do with Alderson’s four division titles and the World Series win, than the books “Moneyball” or the Bill James Annual.
As a matter of fact, I posed this question over a week ago in a blog entitled: Sandy Alderson And The Spotted Elephant In The Room.
What if anything did he know about the rampant steroid use on the Oakland A’s during his tenure as President and General Manager?
I wasn’t looking to rain on Sandy’s parade, but simply wanted an acknowledgment that steroids did play a part during those championship years.
Since I wrote that blog on October 21st, my question found it’s way to Ian O’Connor of ESPN who actually demanded an apology from Alderson. Parts of it also appeared on Mets Today, Mets Blog, and yes, even our friends at Amazin’ Avenue dedicated a post to it yesterday.
Anyway, getting back to the “Moneyball Mets”… Sandy Alderson will not have any shortage of resources and payroll, now that he’s in New York.
In fact, this might stir up some great memories for Sandy of the good old days, when he could spend money freely and do whatever it takes to win a championship. And the best part is that in Sandy we’ll have someone who is intelligent enough to spend that money wisely and maintain some semblance of fiscal responsibility for the organization. We couldn’t have hired a more perfect leader to take this team back to respectability and back to a championship caliber level.
Dan Martin of the NY Post had an interesting quote from longtime Alderson associate and assistant in both Oakland and San Diego, executive Grady Fuson.
“He realizes that there are different expectations in New York,” Fuson said. “And that there should be no five-year rebuilding process when you have the resources the Mets do. People forget, in the late ‘80s, we were pretty much a big-market club, when we were putting rings on our fingers.”
And it’s those resources that Alderson didn’t have toward the end of his tenure as GM in Oakland or CEO in San Diego.
“It’s a totally different job when you have the revenue to work with that he’ll have with the Mets,”
Fuson, who knows Alderson better than just about any person alive, substantiates what I wrote. Sandy Alderson is a smart guy… a take charge guy… a hands-on guy…
There will be plenty of instances where he’ll turn to advanced statistics to evaluate a potential signing, draft pick or trade target, and that’s not a bad thing. He will use statistics to measure performance and a player’s productivity as well he should. This is what most or all GM’s do each and every day as routine part of their jobs. Baseball is all about numbers, so to ignore them would be akin to disrespecting the game.
However, Alderson will not use sabermetrics as the end-all to running an organization. He will use every tool in his arsenal to build a winner and that includes using his own instincts and scouting reports as well. He will consider things like character because he himself is a man of integrity. This is what he’s done his entire career, and he’s not suddenly going to stop now.
So I urge my sabermetricaly inclined friends, to take a deep breath and stop fantasizing about some Cecil B. DeMille epic where Alderson will raise his mighty staff, part the Hudson River, and lead the Mets into the promised land where they can worship Bill James at the foot of Mount Saber.
It ain’t happening…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
Went to my first Mets game, a Mayors Trophy game at Shea, in '73. We beat the Yankees 8-4 and I was hooked. I marched in two Banner Day parades, and before the Grand Slam single, there was the "Hendu Can Do" grand slam - I was there. I've collected Mets memorabilia all my life and started Mets Merized Online to feed my addiction.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 26 | 17 | .605 | - |
| Nationals | 25 | 17 | .595 | 0.5 |
| Marlins | 23 | 19 | .548 | 2.5 |
| Mets | 22 | 20 | .524 | 3.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 22 | .488 | 5.0 |
Last updated: 05/22/2012
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Write Your Own Mets Post
if ignoring the numbers is to “disrespect the game”, as you say, then you are one disrespectin’ mofo.
You have your numbers like vorp, fip, zips, xwoba, gls and I have mine batting average, slugging percentage, ERA, WHIP and over a dozen others. Off the top of your head how many homers did Maris hit in 1961 or how many wins did Denny McLain have in 1968? Easy 61 and 31. Now, tell me Maris’ VORP that season and McLain’s DERA?
I’ll give you the rest of the year to figure it out without resorting to looking it up.
Just because some of your numbers dont jive with mine and vice versa, it doesn’t mean I dont like numbers. I just may not like some of YOUR numbers, which didn’t show up until the last two decades. Baseball got along just fine without them.
I still like some of the more sensible sabermetric stats like OPS, OBP, WHIP, etc. But even you must admit that many of them are just off the wall.
the word is jibe, not jive. and again, you consistently ignore the numbers that matter. when frenchy was traded you lauded a poll of fans that were opposed. you called it a “proper sendoff” that the fans had no understanding of how magnificently terrible he had been. even now you admit to wanting to post about when frenchy gets hot, as if you have zero understanding of what numbers mean.
your understanding of player value would actually increase if you forgot everything you know about player valuation and were only taught OPS+ and WHIP. those are not “off the wall” they are very closely correlated with player performance. not rbi, not pitcher wins at all.
Really? You felt compelled to say it’s “jibe, not jive”?
Trifling.
Are you kidding me? jibe or jive? Oh brother. If you turned down your arrogance and sarcasm just a tiny bit, you just might make some headway with many of the posters on this site.
my goal isnt necessarily to make headway. i like being sarcastic and condescending.
Martin how is it that a major league team has failed to hire you? Clearly you’re the most knowledgeable person on here or in fact on any blog known to man. Jon Daniels shudders when your name is mentioned. Billy Beanes’ heart flutters.
I don’t know how you’ve managed to fly under the radar like this it’s akin to a national tragedy. All I can say is thank you Martin thank you for existing.
You complete me.
To close your eyes to anything that can help you is a bad move. Identifying why your line up isn’t functioning the way you would like cannot really be done by looking at all 6000 AB’s during a season. How can a person remember more than a hundred of these. Configuring a well thought out line up and replacing an ingredient can make a huge difference. That is best done under the cold hard lights of numbers. Would it make sense to have a different line up for LHP than you do for RHP’s? Thole’s OB is .381 against RHP and .200 vs LHP. Pagan gets on .351 vs. RHP and .298 vs. LHP. Tejada got on at a .377 clip vs. LHP (only 54 AB’s) and .282 vs RHP. What this tells me is (if we had enough AB’s for these guys) that Pagan, Thole would be the best 1st and 2nd hitters to put up infront of our HR hitters against RHP. It also tells me Pagan should hit farther down in the line up against LHP and Thole NEEDS a RH compliment. These things may have been evident to some people without looking at the numbers but by HOW MUCH. Would you have known that Angel gets on base over 5% more often against RHP? I wouldn’t. How about Reyes, hitting leadoff? .312 against RHP last year. All things being equal for a season that’s a difference of 28 times you have a baserunner and the same # of outs as opposed to not having a base runner and 1 more out. Maybe this causes you to look for a backup CFer who has a high OB% against LHP to pair with Angel and then with a lead in the 8th you slide him to LF, take Bay out and put Pagan in CF. If you could identify 28 less outs and 28 more baserunners for all 8 spots in the line up how many more runs would you score and how many more games would you win? When you look at 2007 and 2008 just 2 more games would have made such a huge difference. Why leave them on the table?
Moneyball had nothing to do with Sandy Alderson, nothing at all. But there is no disputing that Alderson is an advocate of sabermetric principles now. Maybe not to the extent of Theo Epstien or Billy Beane, but he will use them and it will impact the Mets for the better.
Moneyball had nothing to do with Sandy Alderson? Moneyball had EVERYTHING to do with Sandy Alderson. Alderson is the godfather of moneyball. Where do you think Billy Beane’s methods came from? sure the book was about Beane. but everything Beane was about was because of Alderson. you need to do some more research.
One more thing… Ian O’Connor demanding an apology is an absolute joke!!!
I wrote him, first for not crediting me even a little in his post, and second of for turning it around and making it a campaign to make Alderson look bad and cast him in a bad light. Nobody needs to apologize for the steroids era, nobody. I was simply curious to know if Sandy thought it had any impact on those great Oakland years.
BTW O’Connor is infamous for tearing down good people.
It is quite obvious that Joe D. has never read “Moneyball”. As another commenter mentioned above, his info came straight from Wikipedia. Real solid research there Joe. If Joe D. actually read the book (which, it boggles my mind that a baseball blogger hasn’t, but I digress) he might have read this (from page 63):
“Alderson pointed to a row of well-thumbed paperbacks by a writer named Bill James, who had opened his eyes to a new way of thinking about baseball. Alderson had collected pretty much everything Bill James had written, including four books self-published by James between 1977 and 1980 that still existed only as cheap mimeographs.
…..
But he had found James’ approach to the game completely persuasive, and had reshaped a professional baseball organization in James’s spirit.”
Read that Joe? 1977. Not 1995. I’d be glad to lend you a copy of Moneyball if you want to actually read it before commenting on it.
You wrote:
“However, Alderson will not use sabermetrics as the end-all to running an organization. He will use every tool in his arsenal to build a winner and that includes using his own instincts and scouting reports as well. He will consider things like character because he himself is a man of integrity. This is what he’s done his entire career, and he’s not suddenly going to stop now.”
Who are you arguing against here? No one disagrees with this, especially saber-inclined fans. You’ve built up a straw man and torn it down. One thing that’s re-assuring — Sandy Alderson won’t be trading for Jeff Francoeur and making him an everyday player.
James, you wrote:
Who are you arguing against here? No one disagrees with this, especially saber-inclined fans. You’ve built up a straw man and torn it down. One thing that’s re-assuring — Sandy Alderson won’t be trading for Jeff Francoeur and making him an everyday player.
I wasn’t arguing with anyone, simply stating that sabermetrics should be used as a tool along with all the other stuff, which sounds mundane on your site, but here on MMO I have many readers who are vehemently against saber and if I could help them understand it’s not evil I felt I might be doing both sides of the spectrum a service in bridging the gap.
By the way, I fel the gap HAS NARROWED considerably this year, and will continue to do so under Alderson.
Speaking of, I admitted I knew very little about Alderson on the onset, and OMG is it a crime to look things up on wikipedia now? Bloggers have been doing it for the better part of a decade as a starting point for research.
As for the Alderson – James connection, let me say it once again:
He didnt turn to sabermetrics until 1995, after his payroll was slashed. When he started reading Bill James is one thing, I’m talking about when he implemented it which was in 1995.
So have you read Moneyball? Yes or no. Easy question.
And can you provide any evidence for your 1995 assertion besides Wikipedia? Because I can provide some showing that he was a sabermetrics innovator starting in the 1980s:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=schwarz_alan&id=2048402
“Alderson constructed his Oakland clubs in large part around on-base percentage – getting high ones from hitters and low ones from pitchers – and did it well enough to build the game’s most successful franchise during 1988-92.
Most of Oakland’s moves in the mid-to-late 1980s were made with OBP in mind. The A’s drafted pure slugger Mark McGwire over two speedier and more complete players, Shane Mack and Oddibe McDowell; they dumped free-swinging shortstop Alfredo Griffin for pitcher Bob Welch; they acquired Reggie Jackson, Dave Henderson, Rickey Henderson and Ken Phelps, all of whom fit the walk-and-homer profile. The result? Four division titles and three pennants from 1988 through ’92.
In the summer of 1982 he approached Alderson with ideas that corroborated those of the Stanford Business School students – specifically those regarding the walk and home run as primary offensive weapons. Alderson hired Walker as a consultant, and kept him on for the rest of his Oakland tenure.”
1982 Joe D.! You can keep your Wikipedia, and I’ll take actual information. I’d normally expect you to update this post now that this new information has been provided but that probably won’t happen. Why let facts get in the way of a good story, eh?
Question: When you first started as GM, you were reading some Bill James. I was just getting into Bill James in 1984, and it was kind of an eye opener to me. He was sort of on the fringes at that time, and of course… he’s actually now working for the Red Sox… What impact did his work have on your understanding of the way the game works, and how did it influence the types of decisions you made in a real-time setting?
“I think it had a significant impact. He was doing some writing, and there were others at the time also on the fringe — a guy in the Bay Area by the name of Eric Walker. Eric we actually hired as a consultant, although we didn’t advertise that fact, and he did quite a bit of work for us over the years in trying to evaluate not just major league players but minor league players for purposes of projection at the major league level.
When I got into the game, I didn’t have any real background in baseball, so I wasn’t burdened by any [laughs] traditional notions of how to evaluate players or construct teams. I was particularly open to people like Bill James and Eric Walker. Walker wrote a book called The Sinister First Baseman, a little paperback, which was actually quite instructive.
I’d say there were two competitive theories at that time, personified on the one hand by Earl Weaver and on the other hand by Gene Mauch. Weaver believed in the three-run homer, and Mauch believed in little ball.
From my standpoint it was the Eric Walkers and the Bill James who I think were able to very adequately support the Earl Weaver approach to the game in terms of overall success and what created the highest probability for success. That tied in nicely because to me the home run is like the 80-yard pass, like the three-point shot. It’s the kind of thing in which you can enjoy the anticipation.
There are a lot of things in baseball and other sports that are more athletic, and more immediate, and more reactive, but you don’t have the same sense of anticipation. I like home runs [laughs] — people like home runs — and so it was nice to see the concepts support that notion.”
The above quote is as answered by Sandy Alderson.
Well I hope he’s not going to rely on the HR too much here especially at the expense of defense with our home field and the types of pitchers we have here right now.
No, he didn’t. He implemented it in 1984, and in the winter of 1986, let Dave Kingman, he of the 35 homers and 94 RBIs and the .258 OBP go and replaced him with Reggie Jackson, who had a .381 OBP.
He definitely was using statistical analysis before 1995. It’s in two books, Moneyball and The Numbers Game. It’s easy to look up.
It says he wrote the books in 1977-1980. Not when Alderson actually acquired or read them.
Careful Stick you may get sucked into the insanity that is when did Alderson read a book HAHAHAHAHAHHAA.
what to you see what else i just wrote NJ!
good point.
Two things I’m sick of
A) Jersey Shore
B) People drawing lines in the sand between people who look at sabermetrics and … whoever else
“Alderson turned to sabermetrics for help in 1995 because the new owners ordered him to slash payroll. And when I say slash, I mean slashed to the bone.” — Yes, taken almost entirely from Wikipedia.
However, what you clearly missed was the part in the book where Alderson is described as reading Eric Walker & Bill James in the early 80′s. Alderson’s focus through those abstracts was creating a mindset of drawing walks in the minor leagues. He didn’t just wake up in 1995 and decide “hey all of that stuff I’ve been reading for 15 years, I’m going to try it now”
“He believed he found that edge when he stumbled upon a book by Bill James and his new sabermetric stats.” – 1984 not 1995. Alderson liked James & Walker because they were baseball outsiders. Like him.
“Alderson didn’t get the effect he was looking for and the Oakland A’s went on to lose 77 games in 1995, 84 more losses in 1996, and finally 97 losses in, you guessed it, 1997. It was after that season that Alderson split the scene” — That’s because his focus turned from building a championship big league team to molding his minor leagues to fit the idea that he and Beane came up with.
“Ian O’Connor of ESPN who actually demanded an apology from Alderson” — He did, and that’s when I stopped reading anything he wries. Who is Ian O’Connor to demand an apology? Where was the media during all this as well? No GM cared, no baseball executive cared, no players cared, no media and no fans cared. To demand apologies is ridiculous.
“However, Alderson will not use sabermetrics as the end-all to running an organization”
— This is probably my biggest pet peeve. Nobody thinks Sandy Alderson, Billy Beane, theo Epstein, Andrew Friedman, etc sit in a boiler room with a computer and pick a team. What *WE* are excited about is somebody is coming in here and is OPEN to using whatever tools necessary to make informed decisions. Nobody thinks he’s plugging stats in a computer and picking our next 2B. He along with every other GM still employ scouts. We’re just happy he’s a guy who doesn’t ignore their value.
i actually do think he is plugging numbers into a computer to pick our next 2b. if he isnt doing that, he should be. baseball is about assembling teams that score more runs than the opponents. it is a numbers game. you sign and play guys with the ability to sway the numbers your direction.
I agree with about 80% of what you just said. I was responding to a request from the post I cited The Moneyball Mets.
I also said I was excited that Alderson will use whatever tools necessary, which why I wrote that.
I said that using sabermetric numbers was a good thing.
He didn’t get the effect he was looking for, Beane did achieve that effect and I praised him for it.
The bottom line is that Moneyball is not about Sandy Alderson and you can email the author yourself. It’s about Billy Beane.
As for the line in the sand, you can say that about parties on both sides. Did you read the post I cited? Who drew the line in the sand me who only responded, or the progenitor of the post?
Oh one more thing, I said I could only draw what I could about Alderson from barely a month or research, I didn’t go out and have dinner with the guy. Of course, I went to Wikipedia (who doesn’t?) and learned about why he turned to saber in 1995. I never said he started researching saber in 1995, I said he turned to saber in 1995. Which he himself admits and Fuson his own assistant acknowledged which is why I included his quote made only yesterday mind you.
Where Oakland finished between 1995 and 1997 are facts with no explanation necessary. You say it’s because he focused on the minors and I looked up his drafts for those years and included his top two picks in each draft:
1995 – Ariel Prieto, Mark Bellhorn
1996 – Eric Chavez, Josue Espada
1997 – Chris Enochs, Eric Dubose
Anyway, Moneyball is not about Alderson.
As I wrote in my post,
We couldn’t have hired a more perfect leader to take this team back to respectability and back to a championship caliber level.
Good Luck Sandy and Lets Go Mets!
Hey Joe,
Just quickly off topic..did you see the post by Metsblog where Matt is asking for people to search the web for Mets news and quickly post the links on hia site?
That’s a practice we’ve been doing here for years in the shoutbox! We’re trailblazers, lol
http://www.metsblog.com/2010/10/28/writing-for-metsblog/
The funny thing is there is a website plugin tool that already does what cerrone wants. Report Mets News as it happens without adding tour opinions for free. It’s called Sportspyder.
Yes thats true as well, lol. I only added a Sportspyder feed to our sidebar this season. But it’s a good tool for readers and bloggers alike.
Actually, I did see that very early this morning. And yes thanks to you and some of the other guys, we have been posting real-time links since we implemented the shoutbox in early 2007.
In fact me and some of the other writers on MMO are very gratefull for all the stories you brought to our attention over the years which gave us great content for the site. I owe you, Brooklyn, Sach, Sach C., Dave, Hitman, Met Maniac, Satish, MetsFan224 and about a dozen others whose names currently escape me a big thank you!
you are correct, they couldnt have made a better hire. the reason is because alderson cares about things that win games, not the things you lot care about.
i know what moneyball is about, i read it when it came out and again last year.
As a poster wrote earlier, Alderson was the first to use statistical analysis. He hired Eric Walker, who wrote The Sinister First Baseman, where he advocated OBP as a better way to measure players performances.
Moneyball is partly about him: He hired Billy Beane, and his ideas were passed down to Beane.
There’s also a section about him in Alan Schwartz’s The Numbers Game.
I really don’t see the point in not trying to put together the best functioning line up possible and identifying other players who can zig where your guys zag. It really doesn’t make any sense to not turn over every rock. Alderson, as a baseball outsider really couldn’t influence baseball theory when he didn’t grow up around the game. He learned from available sources who had some pretty interesting insights that they put to the test and he went about trying to implement some of these ideas in his farm system. There will probably always be disagreement over whether plate discipline is learned or innate but one thing nobody can argue is that once a young hacker has some success up here, while they can try to be more selective, once they slump, their going right back to swinging at the first pitch. Alderson believes that OB% CAN be ingrained in the minors and there is no question that the difference between getting on and getting yourself out is the largest discrepency between good hitters and bad. No pitcher ever wanted to walk Ricky Henderson but many did. He didn’t arrive up here with a rep of having a great eye. He EARNED that rep. He worked those umps and pitchers. He crouched, he fought off pitches and he was too good a hitter to just lay one in there. He presented a real problem for the pitcher and that’s a lot more conducive to winning baseball games than just getting yourself out.
I can’t quite see why the debate always seems to become all or nothing here. Every GM/FO uses stats to evaluate players. And each probably uses different “exotic” ones (hard to imagine anyone tries to use them all!). But bottom line, they are just one more piece of data to put into the evaluation mix, and it is up to the individual to weigh the pieces how they see fit.
But the strange idea is that if you have “resources (code for wor big payroll), then you will ignore the saber stuff. But that makes no sense, since if you understand it has value when you are on a tight budget, you will understand the value with a big payroll.
Basically, saber stats are supposed to identify “better” players. But the payroll is what lets you actually go out and obtain the better talent (at least the expensive ones), either as a FA or by having quality MiLers to trade.
if you are looking for a car, I can do all kind of analysis to prove that a Benz is better option than a Kia, but if you can’t afford the MB, alls that will really do is make you sad!
Amen.
I cant begin to tell you how much I hate these squabbles, but I feel compelled to add my own two cents. Every one or two months, AA and MMO posts something that is viewed as a sucker punch by the other, which then leads to a counter punch, leading to these unproductive rants that always get out of hand. I don’t think either of these sites have shown any desire to stop either. Th real shame is that both sites are great and have a lot to offer. Both of the posts firt the amazin one, and then this one, were simply poorly veiled potshots at each other. I guess next month it will be MMO’s turn to fire the next volley and trigger another ridiculous response. Can we just cool it on both sides already?
Well all I can say is James K likes reading MMO cause I see him here often. So Joe D must be doing something right. I know I wouldn’t waste my time reading and commenting on a site that I had no respect for like for example “bleacher Report”.
Not sure if Joe frequents AA as often as James K does here since I rarely read AA myself but maybe it’s just a friendly rivaly between both of them.
perhaps he likes it because it clownishly wrong about everything.
This is what you said about Alderson.
“i actually do think he is plugging numbers into a computer to pick our next 2b. if he isnt doing that, he should be.”
But here is what Alderson said.
“I like information. This doesn’t mean it’s all statistically-based, I trust subjective view points as well. The game is also about character, and things you can’t measure.”
I guess you must think Alderson has no understanding of the game too.
Too bad your clownishly worng about everything.
it is because he wants the ignorant fanbase not to hate him that he says that. and it is working on you. like a politician claiming he is religious when he isnt.
yep, that’s right. I can already picture Alderson loading up his Excel spreadsheet…then two seconds later he says “He will be our next second baseman.”
You are clueless.
i bet he is asking “how much grit and leadership is murphy showing at 2b in winter league? never mind his stats!”
Don’t you think he will look at everything? That’s what he should do.
i dunno what that means. what is there besides the numbers? character? what does that mean? does a poor character guy play lazy and have bad stats? if so why not just care about the stats?
So as GM you ONLY have to look at numbers?. Nothing else?
that is like asking me if the only thing that determined wins is the numbers on the scoreboard? nothing else? just a couple numbers on a scoreboard? no credit for players that are funny in interviews like frenchy? no HR taken away from bonds for being surly? no free wins because david eckstien tries so hard to throw the ball?
what is there beside player performance? how much was it worth to the team that frenchy had such great character? how much was it worth that alex cora yelled at his teammates? those guys are horrible and made the team lose because they played poorly. a smart GM would have never signed them.
Then why do we have scouts? Every team has them. So I guess every team in the major leagues has no understanding of baseball because they listen to other things besides numbers on the back of a baseball card.
“clownishly wrong about everything”?
I can only speak for myself but the idea that I would waste my time reading and writing on a site that is as you say “clownishly wrong about everything” would speak very poorly of me.
that makes no sense but ok, good for you.
I am not surprised.
Now look waht you’ve done! You bought Cerrone into the fray!!!
“I hope he takes what he learned there, adapts, opens his New York toolbox, and essentially creates Moneyball 2, whatever that might be.”
http://www.metsblog.com/2010/10/29/moneyball-2-electric-boogaloo/
I saw that post and it’s comments like this that I want to save for a rainy day. If anyone thinks that Alderson will not make a bad free agent signing or two over the next 4 years they have another thing coming to them.
VCarver: Oct 29, 2010, 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #
“…Alderson would never have given an aging player like Castillo such a contract. He would let advanced fielding metrics inform his decisions, unlike Omar.”
http://www.metsblog.com/2010/10/29/moneyball-2-electric-boogaloo/#comment-855102
Is that guy serious? You know what’s funny is that Castillo has been widely praised by the saber crowd for his OBP, so vcarver picked a terrible example. Should have gone with Ollie. It would have made his comment less ridiculous.
Why is using Castillo a terrible example? His range has been steadily declining for years now.
Why is the comment, in general, ridiculous?! Who knows what Alderson does in that situation, and frankly, who cares?
Vcarters comment was in regard to Castillo’s age and range, not his OB%. Actually Castillo is a very good example of why you need both perspectives, working with each other. Obviously age speaks for itself, especially at a young man’s position like 2B. Range must be quantified especially when planning to play him next to another range impaired defender. But how is he accruing that OB% and at what cost. Luis has a good OB% for two reasons. Walks and infield hits. As a leadoff hitter in the NL that might play well but considering him as a #2 hitter most of his infield hits would turn into force plays so what he does to protect his OB% (he’s not the only one who does this) is he sacrifices. A sacrifice is akin to a tax deduction on your bottom line OB% wise but incorrectly applied, doesn’t advance your chances of winning. Luis having to undergo surgery on both knees in the offseason in which he signed the big deal could have, and should have, been projected to not be of much help in 2008 and in fact wasn’t. How was he to get in shape? Reyes was out most of 2009 but if both had been healthy and in the line up together the hit and run would have been a very good tactic since Luis has great bat control and already hits the ball on the ground 3 times out of 4. At the very least it would have taken the sac bunt out of luis hands and given us more 1st and 3rd w/no outs as opposed to runner on 2B and 1 out. All in all the combination of us already having a leadoff hitter, impending surgery, decreased range, age and the possibility of picking up two high draft choices by letting him go made the decision pretty easy. Unfortunately we got it wrong.
Joe D you are right!!! I just heard Alderson say that only 3 paragraphs in the entire book Moneyball referred to him. 3 paragraphs!!! He just said it just this second!!! Sorry for all the exclamation points, I just thought of this post as soon as he said it.
Anybody who thinks or thought Moneyball was ABOUT Alderson… has not read Moneyball.
The most frustrating part about moneyball, sabermetrics critics is they base their views without knowing the facts or researching.
I have had long winded debates with people who tell ME what Moneyball is about but REFUSE to read it.
Yes, that’s fine but the person that wrote that quote up there said Alderson is who Moneyball is about. Did he read the book?
KMaxx: Who said that?
Sam Page did.
The most inaccurate statement made between this post and and the Moneyball Mets post, was that Moneyball was about Sandy Alderson. I read the book three times, and to make a comment like that is just totally way off base and a mis-characterization of the book. All the other opinions made by both bloggers is just semantics.
The original post stated that the book was “actually” about Alderson. If you want to take this literally, and say that Billy Beane is actually the focus of the book, that’s fine but you’d be missing the point. Original post was saying the book was mostly about the progressive sabermetrics philosophy, which was championed by Sandy Alderson. So while the book isn’t literally about Sandy Alderson, it’s about something he was integral in cultivating. Joe D. has taken the literal approach here, thereby totally missing the point and adding nothing to the discussion, mainly based on his bizarre averion to advanced statistics.
I think we’re missing the point here a bit or maybe our lines are crossed.
Did Sandy Alderson’s acceptance of innovative thoughts around baseball evaluation have a ton to do with the Moneyball process? Yes
Was the book written about him? No
The book is about the growth of Billy Beane within the sport of baseball beginning with his time as a potential #1 draft pick, and essentially how he took tools he learned from his time in the game as a player (basically that he only looked the part of a great prospect, but didn’t really have the talent.) and he put it into use.
It’s about a *collection* of ideas and *always* be willing to change your thinking or add to the ways you think about the game.
That in essence is what people who ignore sabermetrics, or mock moneyball miss. It’s about learning more. It’s about admitting “this isn’t the only way and there’s never a 100% accuracy rate” Guys like Alderson did give Beane the platform to grow, and eventually become what he is today.
So if Moneyball is “about” Alderson in anybody’s view then that’s the only argument you can make.
Innovation through research and having an open mind.
Baseball is still a game, but if you continue to always use the same methods of evaluation on players, you’re never going to get ahead of the curve when others around you are changing their ways of thinking.
You wrote:
“Did Sandy Alderson’s acceptance of innovative thoughts around baseball evaluation have a ton to do with the Moneyball process? Yes
Was the book written about him? No
So if Moneyball is “about” Alderson in anybody’s view then that’s the only argument you can make.”
I agree with all of this. That’s the point of the original post! Without Alderson, “Moneyball” the book would not have been written. There would be no Billy Beane. This is a ridiculous semantics discussion. And I’m still wondering if Joe D. actually read “Moneyball”.
Actually there’d be no Billy Beane in baseball front offices if not for scouts like Roger Jongeward.
So if you want to talk about who begat what… Moneyball is as much about scouts like Jongeward as it is Alderson etc.
I think when you say “a book is about…” you’re saying the subject of the book is a story following XXX
What you mean to say is Billy Beane was a student who learned from Alderson and some others and the book follows Beane’s use of what he learned, and also what the people around him innovated.
“What you mean to say is Billy Beane was a student who learned from Alderson and some others and the book follows Beane’s use of what he learned, and also what the people around him innovated.”
Sure. That’s another way of putting it. Again, this is a semantics discussion.
Alderson is an old-timer who got interested in new math – nothing wrong with incorporating new tools. It’s 2010. My big problem is the newer video-game generation who have it backwards – the new math is more important than the game. That’s the big problem.
The more I hear a lot of these saber-kids talk the more I see they don’t understand baseball as much as their understanding of these new numbers.
46 here. Thanks for calling me a kid!
hey i hope i’m as alert, sharp, & hip as he is when I’m 62.
And don’t be surprised if this site one day surpasses Amazing Assholes. Because in my opinion, over time, people will discover how inexact saber is, it is merely a tool that’s it.
The real truth is the game itself – baseball. And the truly smart people know that.
BMF,
Why so serious? If you have any gripes/questions about something you’ve read on AA I’m more than happy to discuss. People e-mail me occasionally when they disagree or have questions with something that has been written and I’m more than happy to engage (sometimes I’m busy and it takes a few days to respond but I always do).
So if something written on AA bothers you, feel free to let me know and it can be discussed. Providing specific examples of what you disagree with is the best way to go about it, rather than blanket criticisms of the site.
Regards, James K.
James K.
I just erased about a 500 word rant about your response to something I posted earlier. Just as I was going to hit post, I thought better of it and let it go. I don’t hate you or your site. How can I hate someone I don’t even know. But you have a way of coming off too strong whenever somebody disagrees with you. I was planning an angry response to your defense of the quote on your site and saying that it shouldn’t be taken literally. You know it was. I asked about a dozen people to explain what they thought the quote implied and everyone agreed it said Moneyball was about Alderson.
I’m not looking to argue over something so literally black and white because it’s a waste of time. You seem to always demand some sort of accountability from this site on several occasions, but when one of your writers is asked to account, you defend it with significant bias. Be fair. That’s all I’m saying.
I’m sorry to hear that you’re so angry over something so trivial.
Replace “Moneyball the book” with “sabermetrics” if it makes you feel better. That’s the point of the post. Let me sum up the post in a few bullets:
- For years, many Met fans and blogs have renounced sabermetrics and the work of Amazin’ Avenue, a blog which embraces sabermetrics
- The Mets hired a GM who was a pioneer of the sabermetrics movement.
- The hiring was met with near universal approval, including those who have previously expressed an aversion to advanced statistics. This is kind of funny.
- It’s time to stop the ad hominem attacks on sabermetrics, especially since our new GM is a proponent of it. Just as he (and Amazin’ Avenue) is a proponent of using all available information to make informed decisions.
The end. The references to Moneyball aren’t that important re: the overall point of the post. Please don’t be hung up on this.
I don’t understand advanced statistics, but I’m pretty sure it would be foolish to dismiss them out of hand. Your four points as constituted in this specific post, (i did not read the original) makes sense.
I’m glad Sandy is the GM. I am relying more on faith than anything else right now, but that’s cool because it’s been awhile since I’ve had faith in the Mets.
BTW, I read “Moneyball”. The part that always made me laugh is when Lewis referred to the baseball media as sort of a “women’s auxillary”. HA!
I’ll tell you out here,
I think your site is an absolute disgrace. All it is is one continuing comment thread.
Your arrogance sticks out like a sore thumb in the site’s overall reporting and make for a ABOMINABLE reading experience. I never saw a site that was supposed to be about baseball as mean-spirited as yours. Your mean-spirited humorless photo bit about R.A. Dickey this summer was NOT funny at all. It was demeaning.
Basically i think you’re nothing more than a website that is run by a bunch of video-game loving geeks so detached from reality you never developed any real social skills. You have any question you can email ME, I will not email you.
And learn baseball first if you want to discuss anything with me. Eric Simon says to bring your data or don’t bring anything at all (or whatever) his arrogance and ignorance sets the tone for the site much like a field manager sets the tone for his dugout.
Over time real people will know, though.
Can’t say I didn’t try. Oh well. Godspeed.
You need to calm down. It’s just another Mets site wiith different views.
Wow, that’s a lot of hostility. I wouldn’t respond, except I feel like somebody needs to address the R.A. Dickey contest comment:
In no way whatsoever was that “mean-spirited” or “demeaning.” It was done out of love for R.A. Dickey, who has become a legend at Amazin’ Avenue (as well as among Mets fans overall) – it was done entirely because we think Dickey is the awesomest.
You crossed the line Bayonne. He reached out to heal any hostility and you unfairly blasted him. Very boorish behavior. You really should apologize.
Wow. What did we ever do to you? You don’t need to like sabermetrics or anything like that, but hiding behind “I’m using my eyes,” “I WATCH THE GAMES,” or whatever platitude you choose is incorrect. You can dislike us or hope we get shot into the sun, but calling us arrogant because we use the facts(statistical & observational) when discussing baseball & other topics is silly. To borrow a quote from one of our posters in an Alderson post:
“One thing I do really like is if a guy’s argument is shot down—at least in the case of the regulars—it’s a quick hat tip and back to update their formulae.”
If you make a point & it’s dis-proven, why resort to name-calling? Just acknowledge that someone argued their viewpoint better & move on. If anything, it’s fans like you with your arrogance that have created this “stats vs. MY EYES” silliness. At Amazin Avenue, we utilize all the tools available to us. And I think I’m safe in saying that other people who use advanced metrics do the same as well.
Oh, & none of this is intended to be arrogant, smug, ignorant or whatever you wanna call it. If you’re offended, I can’t do anything about that.
You know what’s funny Bayonne???
You claim to other people should learn baseball, but the truth is, you know NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, about it.
Amazin Avenue is a terrific website that offers a different perspective than saying the Mets need “winners” or that they need to “trayd the core”
Reasonable, logical people would at least try to understand sabermetrics.
Not you, though, Mr. Cool Non Nerd Guy with Social skills.
Blasting random people on Twitter about things you don’t even try comprehend like a d-bag is so much cooler, right?
I’ve followed baseball, played it, coached, managed it most of my life and a few new numbers is not gonna change my knowledge about it believe me.
Most of the new numbers only digitize what you already know in ABs, Rs, Hs, D, T, HR, RBI, BB, K, AVG. SB
OBP is overrated – and i know it’s an old stat. All it does it basically tell you who walks a lot and gets hit by a few pitches more.
OBP is only important for mostly for 1 & 2 hitters. If you have a .300 hitter w/power in the middle of your lineup he’s gonna have a good OBP anyway so I don’t have to know the EXACT number.
I don’t care for .OPS it jus gives me a general idea about the guy that gets on base and has power. I can get that from the regular stats anyway.
Sabermetrics is mainly all the regular stats we’ve ever had but the story told BACKWARDS. IF I was a GM and had to employ a saber guy yes I would naturally but of course – i call the shots – he just a guy who looks at an excel spreadsheet.
WHIP is good.
Also most of the time when saber guys try to talk regular baseball that’s when i’m able to tell that he really doesn’t know what he’s talking about, except for a couple writers here who have a good balanced knowledge of BASEBALL and saberstuff
But overall, when i’m at home and i see some saber guy try to say something because the number says so then yes, i come across as an a-hole on twitter and tell him to stuff it.
I think it’s just a fad and hopefully will balance out as time goes by because it’s very flawed and doesn’t tell you a whole lot of what you didn’t already know in the first place.
And you are wrong – i DO know about baseball. I wouldn’t say i know “absolutely nothing about it”
right. moneyball is about how people like you can be exploited because they dont actually know what they are talking about.
A few things:
OBP is overrated. Um, no it isn’t. If you don’t believe me, ask Theo Epstein, Brian Cashman & Sandy Alderson. They’ll tell you the most important thing for a hitter is to not make outs. You need people to reach base all throughout the lineup because it gives you more opportunities to score. You can have a guy with tons of RBI, but not be a productive hitter(see Joe Carter in 1990). If you put Pujols on KC, he wouldn’t have nearly as many RBI opportunities because the hitters don’t reach base enough. From 2006 on, Ryan Howard has 695 RBI while Pujols has 609. Who’s the better hitter Bayonne?
OPS: It overemphasizes slugging percentage so it’s being phased out in favor of wOBA, which takes into account the types of hits the batter get & his performance on the bases.
WHIP is meh, K/BB ratio & batted ball splits are far superior.
And how is it a fad? Advanced metrics have been in play well before Andrew Friedman, Billy Beane & Sandy Alderson.
correct, OBp is more than 2x as important than slug% in terms of run production. OBP is absolutely vital. i dunno why an idea that simple is so hard for the old-timers to accept.
If you put ANYBODY on KC they wouldn’t have as much RBI.
Just because Ryan Howard had 695 RBIs in the same span as Pujols I’d still need to know more if you want me to compare the 2 over that time. Like HRs & AVG, that’s it. Give me those 2 stats then I’ll give an opinion on who’s better.
Personally, I’d take Pujols over Howard any day…even at Citi Field
I said it could be a fad, only time will tell.
I do agree that you can have a ton or RBI and not be productive. Look at David Wright, he had around 120 RBIs in 2008 but i remember he left a TON of runners on base in September that year of the collapse. He should have had 140. So you’re right if a hitter gets nervous when the pressure’s on and he can’t hit then I would prefer a guy with less rbis and even less HRs at 3B, make those lost numbers up somewhere else, get a guy who can play well under pressure w/less numbers at 3B.
As for .OBP…you have 2 guys, both with 400 ABs but….
1 has 30 HRS, 100 RBIs, 285 BA. .340 OBP
1 has 4 HRS, 37 RBIs, .252. BA .340 OBP (walks a LOT)
If you knew just their .OBP what would that tell you?
“As for .OBP…you have 2 guys, both with 400 ABs but….
1 has 30 HRS, 100 RBIs, 285 BA. .340 OBP
1 has 4 HRS, 37 RBIs, .252. BA .340 OBP (walks a LOT)
If you knew just their .OBP what would that tell you?”
That’s a retarded comparison. First you are not even accounting for the number of doubles and triples each player hits. Second if all things are equal except the slugging numbers of course you take the player with more power. You don’t need sabermetrics to figure out who is better. Sabermetrics is useful for when the numbers are not so easily compared by traditional stats.
I can picture you in Renaissance Italy: “This Copernicus guy is a real geek. I think the idea of a heliocentric universe is just a fad and hopefully will balance out as time goes by because it’s very flawed and doesn’t tell you a whole lot of what you didn’t already know in the first place.”
Too bad sabermetrics isn’t art, it’s more like painting by numbers.
You do that. I’ll do the rest.
Wait, do you really equate Copernicus with art?
oh you’re right..sorry i just skimmed over your comment – which i usually do anyway.
Copernicus is the astronomy guy – i could look it up since we’re on the web but too lazy.
Sabermetrics i don’t predict as this undiscovered universe but more like a passing fad that will level off
So because someone uses knowledge about baseball, they know nothing about baseball.
Interesting.
What knowledge?
I haven’t met one saber geek that actually understood baeball. All you know is adavnced stats which don’t tell you anything more then regular stats. I know because I looked at them and they told me nothing. Because it is nothing. It’s a waste of time.
and all of you just get all your ideas from books. You can’t think on your own if you guys tried. You all just sound like your a bunch of robots programed by Bill James.
For a second there I thought you were calling Bayonne a
Bad Mutha (shut your mouth)
“the real truth is the game itself – baseball.”
That’s beautiful, is that from Bull Durham or Field of Dreams? I don’t really know what it means, though.
As a reader of Amazin’ Avenue and a proponent of a more statistically advanced view of baseball, I love the sport of baseball. I played in high school (was a damn good fielding 3rd baseman, and if you threw me a fastball I could hit it a long way – never could quite figure out how to hit a curveball, though, and decided not to take up an offer to play D-III baseball in college), and still play softball every spring. I don’t live in New York anymore, but I shell out $100+ a year to watch a crappy feed of the Mets on my computer, and I am probably able to catch about 100 games a year on average (way more in ’06, a little less the past two years). Even if you took all of the stats away, I would still enjoy watching the sport of baseball.
But that’s where it would end. I wouldn’t be nearly as invested as I am if somebody wasn’t keeping track of how many times David Wright came to the plate and what he did in those times up at the plate. And that’s what sabermetrics is really all about – it IS baseball. Every stat we talk about relates to what actually happened on the field. Even the “crazy” ones like xFIP, WOBA, and WAR are all just formulas based on what players have actually done, out there on the diamond in front of your eyes.
The reason we advocate these advanced stats is because they give a better idea of what’s going to happen in the future than pretty much any other method. Yes, scouting is also incredibly important, especially for really young players who don’t have a long statistical background. But the stats are an incredibly important tool. No, they’re not always 100% accurate, nobody claims that they are. All they are is a guidepost, a way to try to build a better baseball team.
To use an analogy, using sabermetric stats in baseball is like knowing the odds in blackjack. It’s not perfect, but it gives you a better idea of the probable outcomes. Sure, you can hit on 19 and get a 2, but the odds are really, really low. And, sure, Jeff Francouer could have hit .320 with 30 homers this year, but the odds were similarly low.
Now, do you, as a fan, need to know that Jeff Francouer’s numbers with the Mets in 2009 were fluky in order to enjoy the game? No, not at all – in fact it’s probably more enjoyable to just watch him and hope he’s really turned the corner. But wouldn’t you hope that the person who is building the team understands that? That he knows which players are more likely to be good in the future than others? Again, nobody is claiming that a sabermetrically inclined GM is going to be perfect, but ignoring sabermetrics completely is a pretty sure way to be unsuccessful.
Also, for the record, I DO enjoy playing video games, but I was also in a fraternity in college and consider myself to have pretty decent social skills. But, hey, go on thinking what you like.
well put
It might, but because Amazin Avenue is part of SBNation, and also because it’s the best site for Mets related “sabermetric” talk, it gets tons of new users every day.
Any other Mets blog have 500 comments on live blog on Sandy Alderson’s press conference?
So another troll from AA……if the site is so superior, why bother coming here? Insecure?
Because your garbage web site is not even a website, it’s nothing more than one continuous comment thread BASED on one specific ideology. Amazing Assholes is all about the author’s point of view and it reeks of arrogance and sarcasm, just look at your screen name..there is NOTHING funny about it. This blog is more of a website with graphics, reports, many writers with different opinions on different aspects of the GAME I love which is baseball, an interactive shoutbox that Matt Cerrone now wants to emulate certain attributes.
You want to talk about baseball history? Come here
You want to talk about game previews, normal stats, in game moves? Come here
You want clear minor league reports? Come here
You want to read nice write ups about your favorite Mets players — WITHOUT SARCASM – come here
You want to read stories about Met anecdotes of the past? Come here
You want some nice (not mean-spirited) graphics? Come here
You want a place where kids can come and chat and have fun w/baseball too? Come here.
Your site is the LEAST place where any kids should go because they would be turned off by the unnecessary complicate formulas that mean NOTHING.
but i like sarcasm and mean-spirited graphics
37
Riddle me this.
Here are live blogs of Alderson Press Conference from this MM and AA.
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/10/29/1782081/sandy-alderson-introductory-press-conference-live-blog
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/10/highlights-of-sandy-alderson-press-conference.html
The metsmerized one writes this in their rundown:
Regarding his own philosophy he said, “Many aspects of what you might call a Oak or SD philosophy, pertain. The great franchises in big markets are very good at player development. Things like on-base percentage, slugging and power are important. The mathematics don’t lie. Speed matters too.”
That also appears on amazin recap.
But then metsmerized writes:
Regarding his fondness for statistics, Alderson said that he liked information, but that doesn’t mean it’s all statistically-based. He trusts subjective view points as well and added that the game is also about character, and many other things that can’t be measured with stats.
No metion of that on amazin recap.
Who is being fair and balanced?
Sorry for using a Fox refernce, they suck!
“Regarding his fondness for statistics, Alderson said that he liked information, but that doesn’t mean it’s all statistically-based. He trusts subjective view points as well and added that the game is also about character, and many other things that can’t be measured with stats.”
Good observation I always thought it was about bringing in a person that will use both the things you can and can’t measure.
It seems like there are those that want to use the Alderson signing to suggest that somehow Sabermetrics wins.
I think Alderson’s quote speaks volumes of him that he understands that it’s not just about statistics.
what else is it about?
Even of you ask Alderson that question I am sure not even his Harvard degree will help you understand.
answer anyways, why not?
Cause you don’t seem to acknowledge that while stats show you the results they don’t always explain the why.
You have a player that just blows the kid measured by any stat you wish is just not a good hitter.
The stats clearly tell you this but they don’t tell you why.
The player may be pressing to hard to stay on the big club or justify his salary and is going outside himself.
The player may just need someone to correct a flaw in his mechanics to get the player right.
The player may just need time to develop and was rushed too early.
For every time a player fails on one team only to later succeed on another there are countless of reasons that would explain it that statistics can’t measure.
So while stats are a good tool at telling you what a player did it can’t always tell you what a player will do.
But you probably won’t understand that.
i dont care about the why. if you are good i dont care if is because you are talented or simply try really hard. thats why stats are good, they dont discriminate against little guys or slow guys or whatever. if you can play, you can play.
And there you have it.
Predictable
Based on your logic Dickey should of never had the season he had based on his prior stats.
The fact that he attributed his success to finally grasping how to throw the knuckler is insignificant cause you “dont care about the why”.
As far as your concerned the stats said Dickey was just not good so therefore not worth signing. Yet your stats could not predict the year he had.
Why? Cause there is a human element that can’t be measured.
You may kick n stomp all you wish in regards to stats but the human element will always be there. Deny as you will stats only do so much.
huh? the stats on dickey show that he was good in the minors and deserved a callup. you seem confused but i wish you luck.
clearly you fail to grasp what is being told to you. I am talking about Dickey’s prior seasons not what he did this season but again you fail to see what is right in front of you once more.
why would we throw out the most relevant stats from this season? i know you are trying but please dont be so stupid it makes me laugh hard and i feel mean for laughing at you.
Martin, I can appreciate your passion/conviction in believing what you do. Even though in my personal opinion you are in denial if you think you can remove the human element from the game.
I can see that you love the game so as to not burden either one of us any further with what has already amounted to what i told you earlier when I originally refused to reply which was “all your going to do is disagree with whatever is said to you”
I will leave things as is and move on to another topic. Hopefully one day a light will turn on and you will understand what was being told to you. I can at least say you didn’t reduce yourself to childish insults which is more that I can say for some.
“Stupid”? I see now I spoke too soon when I complimented you on not reducing yourself to insults.
if your “human element” “cant be measured”, then how we do know how to factor it in? sorcery?
Mr North Jersey said:
“Based on your logic Dickey should of never had the season he had based on his prior stats.”
Actually, R.A. Dickey’s stats showed a continued improvement since he began throwing his knuckleball more and more, from 2005 on. His Minor League stats from 2005 became more and more solid. His Major League stats, for the obvious reasons of being bumped up and down, and being shifted from starter and reliever, all in limited playing time, were obviously frayed. When everything finally came together, this season, things clicked, and the mostly average-to-good performance he’s been having for the last couple of years finally clicked. So, yeah…
I am not sure what you define as improvement but let me just say that there was nothing to suggest that Dickey when signed by the Mets was going to have the season he had.
Even Minaya who signed him said as much. Now if your saying that in your opinion when you looked at his prior stats you was not surprised to see the season he had then well I congratulate you for being more observant than most scouts in pro ball.
I will have to just give you the benefit of the doubt because when I look at Dickey’s numbers I don’t see this rise you speak of.
No one could have anticipated Dickey putting the season together that he did. It was a no cost insurance move that panned out big time. 99% of the time it works out like Escobar did. If this is the method you use to build a team your not going to be successful. The best use of stats is to see where your failing and then see who elsewhere would change that failing grade to a passing one or better and what adding that passing grade may or may not take away from something else. Looking under the hood allows you to make the best possible decision.
Exactly T Agee
obviously, knuckleballers have a unique development. they are not necessarily strong or ubertalented dudes. they just learn to the throw an effective knuckler and they are good to go. there is no need for a scout with a radar gun, or a pitching coach watchng arm angles. if they can throw strikes, they can throw strikes. if they are doing well in triple A, based on stats, call em up.
Why do you care about their “unique development” and if they are “strong” or “ubertalented”? Isn’t it only about the stats?
Strange how you say you don’t care about the human element but why do you seem to care about it now?
yes, you are repeating back to me what i just said. it is in fact only about the stats. i just said i would ignore the scouts because with knuckleballers in particular their reports are not relevant.
I am repeating back what you just said. Because you said only stats matter and that the human element didn’t. But now you care about a players unquie development which isn’t about stats. You always do this you flip-flop on the issues. You are one of those people who takes every side of the argument so they can’t be proven wrong.
i didnt say it was about some human element, i dunno what that means. i am telling you in about stats and not the human crap. i am not taking both sides. i am saying stats only. repeat, stats and nothing else. dickey had good stats in the minors so call him up. once again, i am in favor of objective analysis and i am not taking both sides. please read better so i dont have to repeat myself so much.
But why were you talking about the players unquie development? That isn’t about stats.
Oh and the point wasn’t about if you would call up Dickey from the minors. It was about that you wouldn’t sign him based on his stats the year before and for the rest of his career.
But I don’t think your smart enough to understand that.
Mr North Jersey Said:
“I am not sure what you define as improvement but let me just say that there was nothing to suggest that Dickey when signed by the Mets was going to have the season he had.
…
“I will have to just give you the benefit of the doubt because when I look at Dickey’s numbers I don’t see this rise you speak of.”
-If you look at his Minor League stats, from 2005 on, you’ll see a gradual improvement that, as he threw the knuckleball more and more, his FIP (and ERA) both dropped, his Ks rose as compared to the years before he developed it. Saying that there was nothing to predict that Dickey was going to have the season that he had is false, to a degree- when not bounced around, but left alone in one role and one level of ball, he’s had success (2007 AAA, 2008 AAA). Continuing the trend, he had a good start in AAA this season, with us. That he was given enough time to “settle” into being a starter, and was not bounced around as he was in Seattle and Minnesota, he was able to sustain the flashes of competence that he’s shown he’s always been perfectly capable of.
“Even Minaya who signed him said as much. Now if your saying that in your opinion when you looked at his prior stats you was not surprised to see the season he had then well I congratulate you for being more observant than most scouts in pro ball.”
-Omar Minaya, I am sure we can all agree on, was never the most astute of front office baseball people.
AA’s membership values talent over character (not that good character isn’t a positive attribute). The Mets have been lacking in talent both in the major league and minor leagues. Therefore the AA rundown likes to emphasize Alderson quotes that are more interesting to their members, such as one pertaining to his use of math/stats, farm system, roster, etc.
That’s great. There’s nothing wrong with AA playing to their readership or membership as you call it. So why do they get their panites in a bunch whenever they do that here? Shouldn’t it go both ways?
If you are talking about James K’s posts here. He is just having a logical argument with evidence backing them. Maybe he didn’t phrase his quote about Moneyball being about Alderson well, but there’s nothing wrong with people correcting others when they fallacies and wrong information in their arguments. Sure AA and Metsmerized may have different opinions and points of view, but facts should not be twisted no matter where it’s posted on.
Exactly, and the premise of this post was too correct the fallacy that Moneyball was about Alderson and that the Mets were now the Moneyball Mets. Niether of those were true. The title of the blog was deceiving and needed correction, and insinuating that the Mets were being run by the man that Moneyball was about was also misleading.
I’m not defending Joe D, he can defend himself, but don’t you think that all the logical AA readers should have pointed that out to Sam Page, rather than this site?
And further more those logical readers compelled this response from him.
>>>I wonder what metsmerized thinks about this
Not written with nearly enough grit or heart!<<<
I think they got their answer.
You can't ask for the guy's opinion and then bash him because he pointed out sevral errors in the original story.
Just saying.
it isnt “talent” over character. it is “performance”. and performance, unlike character and talent, is measured objectively. jeff francouer cant get on base by smiling at beat reporters, which makes them love him, which makes you love him. and your loving him doesnt make a team win.
Alderson said he considers a players character yesterday during his Q&A and then spoke more about it on WFAN. Were you listening or do your ears automatically filter out common sense?
being GM is alot about politics. i tell my boss i think his wife is a delight. she isnt.
Good observation Maniac,
And and far as me being ripped on Amazing Assholes site. Big deal, they make a few funny (allegedly) graphics, say a few things, it lasts a few comments and it’s gone. Such is the ‘short attention span’ type of fan that site attracts. No biggie
So, AA are assholes for ripping on you for being obnoxious, Bayonne? I’ll say it again here since you didn’t reply to it earlier: fans like you who try to create this “stats. vs. scouting” debate, divide or whatever are obnoxious, arrogant & take away from the baseball discussion. You can call people assholes who don’t look at baseball in the same light that you do, but you sound like one yourself when you try to resort to name-calling & don’t bother to consider the other person’s point of view. You can get all vitriolic & puff your chest out to show that you’re a tough guy, but you never address the points those who use advanced metrics make in regards to baseball.
Hey, there’s plenty of us here that enjoy both sites including me. Bayonne is not my spokesperson or anyone else for that matter. Sure this site has some haters of AA like Bayonne, but AA has the same haters too and you know who I’m talking about.
It’s best we just ignore all of the haters, ior at the very least not let the few detract from the many.
call me a hater all you want. I know the game and I know it well.
i hear it all the time, i just give you guys what you give everyone else. I’m sure there are a few nice saber people i just commented on the overall site and the arrogance, sarcasm and condescending tone it oozes in it’s articles everyday.
I don’t creat stats vs. scouts debates. The Saber guys do, i just repond to them that’s all. I’ve had regular debates, shouting matches, you name it…you’re probably referring to the shouting matches.
Most of the time when i see saber people talking it’s only about numbers and any other time they try to address the rest of the game of baseball they don’t come across too smart. That is MY observation and MY opinion on it. There’s only couple people that I know of in the blog world that I’m in that are equally versed on sabermetrics and regular baseball. then again I don’t read many blogs..just usually this one or Metsblog.
But it’s unfair to color an entire group of people based upon your interactions with 1 or 2 people. I’m not trying to be mean or disrespectful when I say this, but where do you meet these condescending “saber people” from Amazin’ Avenue? I joined in January & had no idea of what the “sabermetric stats” were. Once I joined & asked questions about what these stats were, what they’re used for, & why they’re an upgrade over things like RBI, BA, ERA & W/L, everyone explained it to me in a polite & understanding way. As a matter of fact, there are plenty of AA members who aren’t sure of sabermetrics, but as a community, we try to answer their questions & point them to articles that explain what the stats measure.
Contrary to popular opinion, “saber people” actually watch the game. I don’t see the beef with using numbers in your analysis because it’s a confirmation of what’s taken place on the field. We’d rather use Mike Pelfrey’s FIP instead of ERA because ERA would penalize Pelf for having bad defenders behind him like Luis Castillo & Alex Cora(contrary to what was mentioned above, Castillo is not a “sabermetric favorite”(what does that even mean?)) Honestly, what good is it to look up new ways to analyze something if you don’t even watch it? I post there all the time, & I’ve never seen an “arrogant article.” As Sam said in his post that got Joe D worked up:
“In reality, the authors of this blog were not drawn together by a ritualistic reading of Bill James’ annuals, but a common emphasis on substantiated arguments and aversion to abject bullshit. Amazin’ Avenue often cites statistics, because they are the best evidence at hand. We are often discussing tenured major league players, and the longer someone plays in the majors, the more predictive and useful his statistical record becomes. We are just fans in search of answers, and in many circumstances, statistics are the most empirically reliable tool for deriving those answers.” Just because we don’t bother with stuff like “David Wright is not a leader,” “Jose Reyes is not a winner,” “Carlos Beltran is a clubhouse cancer,” or whatever doesn’t mean we’re condescending or arrogant.
You can hate us, think we’re assholes, think we live in our Mom’s Basements or whatever, but we always cite the facts when we discuss something. You said in your post above that you know people versed in “sabermetrics & regular baseball.” But sabermetrics is regular baseball as it’s statistics & observations all rolled into one package. If you still think we’re assholes, there’s nothing more I can do to change your mind.
statistics and observations rolled up into one? That can’t exist because you know why? Because the second you go through all that trouble about rolling up stats and observations into one..IT CHANGES the next day. And then you have to start doing your statistical analysis again. All you do is describe what already happened.
It’s Brail for baseball people. Then why bother watching?
That’s why you have to really know the game to know what baseball is really all about.
As for FIP, i think if i wanted to acquire a pitcher because he’d do better with my defense I would already know that and not need to be enlightened by a number to notice it. We have unearned runs too you know but in the end you’ll know if he’s good or not.
You can’t enjoy baseball that way. A smart boss will have people do that for him but to really make judgements you have to talk to people who understand the game.
Basically what Sandy Alderson said today.
Huh? As I said, statistics are representative of what actually takes place on the field. People don’t make stats up out of thin air. They test it out & see if it works. And why would you bother to use unearned runs & errors? They’re mainly at the disgression of the scorekeeper & don’t take into account a defender’s range. If Elvis Andrus gets to a ball & is ruled an error while Jeter doesn’t get to the ball & it goes for a hit, what difference does it really make? Another example: say jacoby Ellsbury has to dive to make a catch on a ball that he misread while Carlos Beltran gets to that same ball with ease, who’s the better fielder?
This part is confusing: “As for FIP, i think if i wanted to acquire a pitcher because he’d do better with my defense I would already know that and not need to be enlightened by a number to notice it. We have unearned runs too you know but in the end you’ll know if he’s good or not.
You can’t enjoy baseball that way. A smart boss will have people do that for him but to really make judgements you have to talk to people who understand the game.”
Why can’t I enjoy baseball AND use sabermetrics? I watch as many Met games as I can, does using saber make my viewpoints less valid because I don’t use RBIs as a means to evaluate players? Does it mean that “I don’t know the game?”
To Bayonne’s point above since the reply button isn’t next to the post, knowing that OBP wouldn’t tell me anything. But based upon the scenario you presented, I’d take Player 1 because he is presumably getting more extra-base hits than Player 1. But, if I wanted to dig deeper than that, I would go & look at their wOBA. In addition to what I said earlier about the most important part of hitting is to not make outs, the next most important things are the types of hits you’re getting & your baserunning. Take Luis Castillo last season. He did have a .387 OBP, but he only hit singles & was average in the stolen base department. As a result, his wOBA was average(.337) & a true reflection of his offensive production. Combine that with very bad defense at a key defensive position, you have a below average player.
After seeing their OBP, I’d have to see what position they play along with their defensive & baserunning contributions. Going by everything available would show us that overall, someone like a Mike Cameron or Carl Crawford can be just as valuable as a Jason Bay or Manny Ramirez.
Mike Cameron will not be as valuable as Jason Bay neither now or ever.
Carl Crawford and Manny Ramirez you don’t compare because they serve 2 different purposes on a team.
Insane.
I disagree with this. A run saved is just as important as a run scored. Of course, you don’t want to go too far in one direction(bringing in all-glove no bat guys or all-stick no glove players). Just because they serve different purposes doesn’t mean they’re not comparable in relation to the value they provide to their respective team. Let me ask you this, would you take the outfielder who is a great hitter but a bad fielder(Manny Ramirez for example), or would you take the outfielder who may not have the big RBI totals, but plays wonderful defense, runs the bases really well & is a very good hitter in his own right(Carlos Beltran for example)? I’d take Option B every time.
Okay, now you changed the comparison to Beltran/Ramirez.
That’s a little more workable than Ramirez/Crawford
This is a good one…let’s see do I move Bay to RF, Pagan to CF, and have Ramirez in LF
or do i keep Bay in LF, Beltran in CF, & Pagan (or replacement) in RF…if i can replace Pagan for an even stronger hitter in RF i keep the latter lineup. Otherwise it’s tough call…i still can’t make up my mind
one thing moneyball was about what the disagreements between scouting/old school baseball philosophy and stats. and this divide is illustrated beautifully by us here, when we argue about francouer. he is objectively terrible, a total abomination. and yet he is vigorously defended. and illustrates how ignorant people are about the game. and moneyball is about thow this can be exploited. if joe D and i were opposing GMs and he signed francouer, it would be great for me, because that would be incredibly stupid. so a good GM should be able to exploit that kind of stupidity and be aware of what player attributes are actually undervalued. so moneyball is about exploiting the market to your advantage. if you have francouer, you should trade him to your rival most likely to actually let him play, because he destroys them. that is smart management.
and working-class morons that resent evidence and reality, those folks will be angry, and that is fun and interesting to watch.
Martin, you’re not the only fan who has read Moneyball. You keep repeating the Moneyball views as if we didn’t know about them. What’s up, Martin? Running out of ideas so you’re doing reruns?
if you wanna help out and tell people what it says, be my guest, i do need help.
Martin, right now you’re radioactive. Try a softer approach. Some folks don’t respond well to being told they are stupid. Here’s a sampler of some your recent comments:
“people that are set in their ways and ignorant.”
“the organization was so damn stupid”
“they ignore mountains of evidence, because they are arrogant”
“seems like an emotional little goofball”
“large numbers of baseball people are clueless”
“many of you treat information as the enemy”
“why are you irrational?”
Martin, are you trying to play some kind of Last Man Standing? Have fun!!!
those are awesome comments, i am pretty funny, thanks for assembling that.
Martin, consider it humor and — and — a bit of advice. Actually, you’ve grown a bit on me, but I hope too much doesn’t rub off. Maybe you’ve not grown on me as much as I’ve set the bar a little bit lower. lol
My advice is to be nice, be to the point and tactful, unless someone kicks dirt in your puss. Then either take the high road or contact Charles Atlas. (Remember, if you’re old enough, the old Charles Atlas ads. Mac got sand kicked in his face at the beach in front of his girlfriend. He returned after the Charles Atlas program to beat up the bully.)
Anyway, good tidings.
martin you are an idiot. You don’t want to have a debate you just come on here and drag people into debates and you always end up reducing it to name calling and insults. I feel bad for the smart Mets fans who get caught into your usual trap.
So I urge my sabermetricaly inclined friends, to take a deep breath and stop fantasizing about some Cecil B. DeMille epic where Alderson will raise his mighty staff, part the Hudson River, and lead the Mets into the promised land where they can worship Bill James at the foot of Mount Saber.
When I just read that part of this post I almost choked on my chocolate chip cookie! Now I dont understand what the big deal is because I thought this was a great post.
Dear Joe D,
Could we possibly have a WestSide Story like rumble in the streets of flushing? Amazin Avenue v. MMO
I feel since I mix well with both sides’ point of views apparently, I get to decide who wins haha
I nominate Kelly for the role of Maria lol
Joe D. confirmed to me that he has not read “Moneyball”. So the only info he has re: Alderson, Moneyball and sabermetrics is from a misleading and inaccurate Wikipedia sentence. Sigh. I wish people would actually take the time to understand things before discussing and criticizing them. If he read the book, Joe D. would have realized how inaccurate that Wikipedia throwaway sentence was.
right, like i said, moneyball is basically about how smart folks can take advantage of the market because people think like joe does and have little understanding of the game.
Why should anyone read Moneyball when everybody I see who says they read it shows little knowledge about the rest of the game. Most of the saber people i see, when they open their mouths show that they really don’t know baseball that much outside of adding up stupid numbers.
I grew up on baseball, participated in it, coached it, managed it…you name it, and I know the game overall much better than you do so why should i read it? It’s not gonna happen and never will.
First you learn more the game of baseball. Joe D can defend himself but he knows MUCH more about how baseball works than you do. I can tell that by the things you say.
again, like i said the book is about you. people that are set in their ways and ignorant. the book is about how those folks are working in baseball and can be exploited. people like you in baseball create opportunities for smart folks by overvaluing things that dont matter. for instance omar, when he trades for francouer, he helps atlanta. not because atlanta gets church, but because the mets will actually play francouer, because like you, they think he is something other than worse than replacement level. and like you, they ignore mountains of evidence, because they are arrogant and proudly wrong.
Where do your loyalties lie? Are you a Mets fan or a sabermetrics fan? You can’t have two masters because you will ultimately love one and despise the other. Which is it?
i cant have two loyalties? i like the mets, and i also like donuts, is that allowed? are those things opposed?
seriously though, when the mets signed frenchy it made it hard for me to watch, and i became less of a fan, because the organization was so damn stupid and had no realistic chance to win. it wasnt fun.
Well for two days you and your cohorts have been screaming about reading a book about the Oakland A’s. Have you read the book the Bad Guys Won or Faith and Fear in Flushing? Those books have more to do with pure baseball and the essense of the game than does Moneyball which doesn’t even refer to our team. I just dont understand your fixation on copying the A’s formula which hasn’t workd for shit lately. Why cant we have our own identity and philosophy and embrace that? Whay do we have to follow the A’s way instead of the Mets way?
i have in fact read the bad guys won, and i really liked it. but not faith and fear. faith and fear seems terrible. that guy greg from that blog seems like an emotional little goofball.
i read “pedro carlos and omar” as well, liked it.
Everyone is entitle to their opinion and if that’s yours on Greg Prince, so be it.
Greg Prince is a published author. Saying ‘faith and fear seems terrible’, without having even read it, doesn’t do much for your credibility.
If you don’t think you’d care for the book, b/c you don’t care for the emotion you read in his blog, that’s fine. But to label the book ‘terrible’ without even reading it?
I can’t decide if that statement is narrow minded or just down right ignorant….
well to be fair, i read his blog, and the posts he makes on forums and i didnt like him. he is in to being a fan in a way that i think is childlike and overly nostalgic. but yunno, whatever, i am not talking about that. i am talking about baseball player analysis, and what works, and what doesnt.
also you are wrong moneyball does talk about the mets. in particular how stupid they were. for picking up art howe for example.
Actually there are problems with both camps. One is the refusal to even attempt to look under the hood believing if it looks good it should run just fine. The other is the incorrect application of various statistics and how they will play out in reality. Not all sabermetric types fully follow ALL the possible ramifications of different player moves. Other one’s do. People that identify with stat based measurements are as different from each other as Gene Mauch and Earl Weaver were. The truth is like most things the answer lies with a combination of both principles by someone extremely well versed in each. The combination of sound baseball theory and a constant analytical check (or the other way around)on the result will keep your team far above those who merely subscribe to one camp or the other.
Well said
I second that.
Bayonne: Because Billy Beane knows more about baseball than you?
Bayonne, I gotta say “Why should anyone read Moneyball when everybody I see who says they read it shows little knowledge about the rest of the game.”
“I grew up on baseball, participated in it, coached it, managed it…you name it, and I know the game overall much better than you do so why should i read it?”
— That’s a real poor outlook on learning new things. Just because some guy reads a book and takes something from it, doesn’t mean you will take the same things from it. If you claim to know baseball more than an average person (which is fine), then perhaps you would understand the book better and appreciate it more for what it is?
I can guarantee you 1 thing, if you read it, it would make debating what it’s about a lot easier. I’ve never read the Harry Potter books so I’m not going to sit here and tell somebody what its about.
But I can also guarantee you without a doubt that Billy Beane knows more about the sport of baseball than you do. Without a doubt. So reading a book that follows his path in management, can only educate you more on the sport itself. Unless you’re afraid to advance your theories on the sport because you don’t want to find out you’re wrong on some things?
If i was interested in getting a front office managing job it may be necessary to read but I’m not looking to work in baseball right now.
I have no qualms about my knowledge being compared to Billy Beane’s – i’m sure he does know more about that end of it.
BUT I would debate him about how the game is played on the field, what moves to be made where and things like that…not saying I know more but I would not be afraid to debate him there. And that’s where my fight with the saber guys comes in because they’re trying to dictate to me how things are going on the field solely by their numbers and I completely disagree with that way looking at the game. This more to it than that, as previously
discussed.
Why read medical books, when all the doctors I see tell me it doesn’t tell me anything I don’t know.
Hell, I still use alcohol for anesthetic.
One question. Why would a book about the Oakland A’s be required reading for a Mets fan? Did Oakland A’s fans read The Bad Guys Won (which was all about grit and heart) or Faith and Fear in Flushing (a must read!)?
Anyone who reads Joe’s blog posts knows he’s all about passion for the Mets, not the Oakland A’s. They win he’s ecstatic, they lose he’s angry. This is the life of a typical diehard fan.
I’ve been following this site since myspace days and he has never claimed to be a an expert in anything or a mathematician or a writer. In fact he belittles his own writing skills all the time, even though he writes better than many of those expert writers. All he’s ever said was that he’s just a regular ordinary fan who lives and dies with his team and chronicles his thoughts daily on this blog. At least he takes a position on everything and he’s anything but lukewarm like that other Mets blogger. Just saying…
again, the book isnt really about oakland, it is about being smart and finding inefficiencies in the market to take advantage of. like i said, it basically about how to make a career off the fact that large numbers of baseball people are cluless and refuse to change. the book is basically about exactly what is happening in this thread. joe is old school, passionate, but ignorant. and many of you treat information as the enemy. its a curious phenomenon and that is what the book is about. why are you irrational? its fascinating.
The book should be required reading for someone who is commenting on the book, as Joe D. did in this post. Joe D. writing about Moneyball, and another blog’s discussion of Moneyball, without having read it is like reviewing a movie without having seen it. We need to move past this ignorance.
If you have no interest in reading the book, that’s terrific and I couldn’t care less. But don’t go bashing it (or praising it) without actually having read it. I think that’s a simple request.
You should read books about infield defense, what the daylight play is, how to align your outfield defense depending what men are on base. Who is your cut-off man to home on a single to LF w/bases loaded, what does 1B do when when a hitter hits one into the gap, why you see 2 infielders getting a cut off in short LF when there’s a ball hit into the gap. Why you should give a sign for the daylight play from the dugout. Who gives the sign to the catcher to give to the pitcher or should the catcher call the game, and on and on and on.
And that’s all off the top of my head.
There’s plenty of books and online resources for you to look at if you want to learn that stuff. That’s baseball.
If you can’t answer ANY of those questions right off the top of your head? Than you’re gonna have to go ALLLLLL the way back to the drawing board.
Why are you talking about oranges when everyone else is talking about apples? Who’s arguing about in game strategies? The debate was about evaluating players and performance using stats, not a bragging contest about specific in game strategies. If you don’t have any useful to say about the topic then don’t bring up irrelevant information.
Obviously you don’t get the context it’s put in…
Do you know anything about defensive strategies?
I think not……
And those strategies are completely irrelevant to what everyone else are discussing. Obviously someone doesn’t get the context of the discussion, and it’s not me.
When the ball goes into the gap, the first baseman backs up the cut off man as the second cut off man.
A single to left with the bases loaded, the shortstop is the cutoff man.
If it’s a rookie pitcher, sometimes the manager will call the game, and signal to the catcher. Maybe the pitching coach will.
You see, at Amazin Avenue, we know all this stuff. We know it because we’re baseball fans and because we played baseball. But we also know about advanced metrics, and use them to evaluate because we feel, and there’s a good majority in Major League front offices who agree with us, that advanced metrics are better tools for player evaluation.
Wong on most of that,
A single to LF w/bases loaded, the 3B positions himself between infield dirt and HP – he is the cutoff man.
When a ball goes into gap, the 1B trails the runner to 2B
i think it is funny that you somehow think that is relevant.
Well the way I played, it was the shortstop who went out to left, because if two runners scored, you still had the chance to throw out the runner at third.
And the first baseman backed up the second cut off man if either the throw got away, or if the throw wasn’t going to make home or to cut off and throw to another base.
Well you played wrong.
Sometimes a SS can get the cutoff if the ball skips by LF, but a single right to LF w/runner on 2B – the cut off man is 3B – It’s not subjective. That’s it.
And first baseman does not back up 2nd cut off man ever. Unless he’s free than he can..but that goes back an old belief I like about baseball defense:
“if you’re just standing there than you’re doing something wrong”
Ideally 1B always trails runner on ball hit to gap. If ball is hit to RF or CF w/runner on 2B than he lines himself towards middle of diamond as cut off to home. That’s it.
You learned wrong.
But i should give you credit for being a stand-up guy, at least you gave it a shot. Nice job.
Well, we know Bayonne’s kids will never play pro ball, since he coaches them wrong.
Game two, Renteria singles to left with the bases loaded. Andrus goes out to left to cut off a throw home, Young stays at home to cover the bag, Kinsler covers the second base bag, Lowe backed up the plate, Moreland ran towards the middle of the diamond to be the second cutoff man and Frenchy ran in towards the first base area to backup a potential bad throw into second base. It’s how baseball has been played since way before you ever watched a game.
Nice try moron,
Like I said before – “if you’re standing around doing nothing, you’re doing something wrong”
Frenchy did the right thing because circumstances always change and you have to adapt to them. Much like a pitcher may cover 2nd on a rundown or any other unusual circumstance, or much like a LF will run in and backup an errant throw from the catcher to 3B – common sense.
“if you’re standing around doing nothing, you’re doing something wrong”
I was 100% correct in my original description because that’s how you do proper defense – just ask anybody else who knows the game you stupid jerk. Don’t even try and go into areas you’re not equipped for. It’s NOT EVEN CLOSE.
…and how long did it take you to research that situation? Notice everything I said was right off the top of my head.
Don’t even try xtreemlystupid – you don’t know what you’re up agains and you’re gonna make yourself look even MORE stupid – if that’s possible.
Bayonne, I think everyone here can agree that people learned how to play the game differently, no?
Even at Major League level teams use different defensive strategies.
That is true but there is pretty much a defensive blueprint to follow. It could amended to the type of field and things like that. Such things as 1B is the cutoff on singles to RF & CF w/runner on 2B is the proper way to play defense in that situation. I would think most teams utilize the cut off and back up cut off for gap hits as 1B trails the runner.
But you are right in thinking that extenuating circumstances can change things.
Are you serious? That’s not research, that’s what happened. That’s how a major league team in the World Series defended a situation you used as an example, exactly the way it should be done. You, however, think it should be done differently. I can baseball circles around you, in every aspect of the game. I’ve done it before, I’m doing it right now and I’ll most definately do it again.
In the play in San Fran, no one on Texas stood around. Maybe the CF did, after a couple of steps in the gap on the ball to LF. Maybe the catcher did, waiting for a throw to the plate that never came. Maybe you would have. But not the American League champions, who played that situation the right way, NOT the way you would play that situation.
What else you got?
Obviously you’re not understanding what I’m saying. Too bad you did not realize that I know you were talking about the World Series game, too bad you’re wasting time on semantics.
Good for you if you did in fact remember all the specific details of that game without looking it up..but we’re not talking about how good your memory is here, we’re talking about infield/outfield strategy. I did not say it should be done differently, I responded to how YOU said it happened you dope. I don’t remember the details so I have to go by your word.
I did not accuse ANYONE of standing around, I said it was a “belief” that I like.
“if you’re just standing there than you’re doing something wrong”
Again, I’m not saying Texas stood around you idiot.
Don’t bore me. You can keep trying though but i would suggest you don’t.
So we’re just going to personally attack me and gloss over the fact that once again, actual major league baseball proved your coaching of high school kids wrong. It makes no difference that you preach one way and very recent proof of a World Sereis game shows your way is wrong? That’s cool. It makes no difference to me how you coach in your own time. Just don’t come here on a ten story soapbox spouting “certainties” that are obviously wrong. You’ll get called out on it. You’ve been called out a lot on this site. Maybe it’s not because ALL OF US are wrong, maybe it’s the singular you.
um no…
actually once the level of play reaches 60 feet 6 inch mound and 90 ft at the basepaths.
Defensive strategy is pretty much standard from teen years to big leagues. That’s when you start teaching it. Obviously at younger ages you have to make adjustments.
But the basic blueprint? It starts when you reach regulation dimensions.
Oh and the strategy I discussed? That’s big league strategy.
Yawn.
“Oh and the strategy I discussed? That’s big league strategy.”
But the big leagues did it differently. Entirely differently, actually. The only two players of the nine on the diamond who did what you said should be done was hte left fielder who fielded the ball and the catcher who waited for a throw home. Other than that, everyone went to their right spots, not the wrong ones as you suggest and apparently teach. I just feel bad for your players and their parents, who put their trust in you.
again, misinterpreting everything i say but wouldn’t expect anything less from you.
Did I ever dispute that? No. Read the thread again…yawn.
Misinterpret this:
“A single to LF w/bases loaded, the 3B positions himself between infield dirt and HP – he is the cutoff man.
When a ball goes into gap, the 1B trails the runner to 2B”
Point A, so obviously wrong, as the AL Champions proved a few days ago. Point B, wrong. That only happens if there’s no one on base when the gapper is hit, not when the bases are loaded.
Sorry if I misquoted you. Maybe you can point out where my misinterpretation occured.
Well you’re going to other posts and copy and pasting to this one to suit your argument.
I also had said in other posts there are circumstances where the blueprint isn’t followed. It happens all the time..you can have a 2B get a throw from RF with runner on 2B, it’s wrong but it can happen.
When a ball goes into the gap the 1B STILL trails the runner because both infielders are out cut off mode with one backing up. Most of the time the cut off man is going to make the throw home himself. They are NOT going to to a double cut. That being said..can it happen? Absolutely it can because like I said there will always be extenuating circumstances.
Are we done yet? Now i see why you, baby al, des, & alex you used to have those long winded million comment threads everyday over the summer. You can keep reaching for straws though. Good effort.
You make me laugh. I always feel so much better about myself after hearing you spout your ignorances. You justify me just by being you, so for that, I thank you.
Where did he bash the book? I reread that post for the third time since yesterday because the reaction on here is outrageous. Paste the lines where he bashed the book?
Is saying that the book is not about Alderson the same as bashing the book?
Alderson himself the book wasnt about him and that the book referred to him in 3 paragraphs?
Did Alderson bash the book?
You are grasping at straws. All of you are. You have tried to concot an argument where there is none. You are fighting a phantom.
Why are all saber guys so temperamental and emotional? Aren’t you guys the ones who say emotion is illogical?
You speak of that book as if it’s the holy scriptures. It’s just a book!
And as for bashing, people bash the Koran all the time, and never read it. Want to share your thoughts on that too?
This whole saber thing has become a movement with this obsessive idealogy that they must reap more converts like almost like a cult.
You like math and numbers and stats and baseball, that’s great it’s a free country, I applaud you. But stop spreading your religion like a bunch of Jehova Witnesses knocking at my door.
It is just a book, but if you like baseball it’s an interesting one. It’s about a new GM testing a new theory. In it he has some hits and some misses. The central storyline to me, was Jeremy Brown. A non athletic looking catcher from the U of Alabama who had been a late round draft choice for Boston the year before and was expected to be just as much of an afterthought this year but because of his tremendous walk rate the A’s made him a #1 pick and essentially he washed out but he did it for a lot less money than the typical first round bust. I really don’t think that the A’s were giving their competition their business plan. I really think they were just trying to assuage their fanbase because of the loss or impending loss of Mulder, Hudson, Zito and Giambi and keep alive the one thing that sport teams need in order to survive. Hope. But it did bring new ideas and a fresh and relevant perspective to the baseball world in an area we don’t often get a chance to see more than a glimpse of at a time. I found it to be a good read like most of Lewis’ books are and I appreciate new ideas especially about things I’m interested in. After all if it weren’t for new ideas baseball players would still be wearing flannel uniforms and we would be would still be wondering how Howard would have fared against Lincecum just like we wonder how D’amagio would have fared against Paige.
James K’s beef with the original post was not that it bashed the book, but that it used wrong information regarding to when Alderson used statistical analysis (what they termed Moneyball) to build a championship team that went to three straight World Series. Joe D. (presumably from his Wikipedia reference) said that Alderson only applied his Moneyball ideas after the A’s cut payroll in the 90′s and that their success in the 80′s had more to do with steroids than Alderson’s use of statistical analysis. Basically he’s spewing wrong info about a book without even reading it.
The funniest thing about this whole post is that the people trashing others for not knowing the game, ARE EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF STUBBORN.
THIS is why MMO commenters get a bad name.
Sach,
I don’t know when this book because some kind of baseball manuel but if you’re saying EVERYONE who wants to debate sabermetrics has to read this book than that’s a stretch.
Who says you can’t argue sabermetrics without reading that book? How about the saber guys reading more about the game itself? There’s plenty of books and movies about big moments, dramatic baseball stories, i’m guessing there are books about baseball strategies too. Things like pick off plays at 2B, 1st and 3rd defenses, what to in a rundown and who covers what base after releasing the ball, different ways of straddling 2nd and 3rd base on forceouts, the art of framing pitches. How come there is no saber metric stat about catchers who are experts at framing pitches and stealing strikes for their pitcher? How many of these saber guys, off the top of their head can tell you who the cutoff man to homeplate is with a runner on 2B and a single to LF? Who’s the cut off man there? Who’s the cut off man on singles to CF & RF with runners on 1st and 3rd?
There’s plenty of books about stuff like that too. Have you read any?
This argument reminds me of die hard republicans vs. entrenched democrats. Each one arguing that only his/her side is right and that they are right 100% of the time. The fact is 80% of people would prefer a middle of the road party that incorporates the best ideas of both sides. The 10% on each extreme would never even bother to look at another point of view because they, and they alone are always right. It reminds me of the old CNN show, Pointless – counter pointless.
Bill James ruined this game. Until he came along the focus between fans was on the personalites and players of the teams, the rivalries, the heroic moments, and the failures and heartbreak too.
Thanks to Bill James everybody including the players focus on stats and started to cheat to improve those stats oonce they saw it was about stats and not winning. The best stats get the most money, thats what moneyball is. Me, I like baseball.
Players have always been paid based on their stats. Rose famously stated that he wanted to be the first 100,000 dollar singles hitter. What James did was put old theories to the light of measurement. By doing so he was able to debunk the value of certain staples of baseball strategy that if one were so inclined, would make a team more efficient both from a money and production stand point. People used to argue endlessly about who was the better player. Now we have a better way to gauge that argument. I enjoyed James’ books for his quirky tangents all the way to his well thought out conclusions. I find it hard to understand why any baseball fan wouldn’t be interested in talking baseball theory and listening to another viewpoint. And I cannot disagree with the statement that players are playing for their statistics but I will argue that it has always been that way, maybe more so today, but ML teams aren’t paying as much for overvalued older stats like RBI’s for instance because it is generally accepted through James’ work that that is a function of who you are hitting behind more than a function of what you have done. The more chances you have the more RBI you’ll acquire. Simple fact but before 1980 RBI were the gold standard. See thinking has changed even though it may come very slow.
so everyone that made the hall of fame before bill james is in there because of personality? ty cobb is in there because he was a nice guy? I thought he was in there because of his best career batting average of all time. I could be wrong.
the whole basis of how good a player is is numbers. Derek Jeter isn’t gonna be a first ballot hall of famer because of his “intangibles”. He’s a first ballot hall of famer because of the NUMBERS he consistently put up every year. every year except this one of course. raise your hand if you think Derek Jeter would be in the hall of fame if he finished his career with 2,000 hits and a career BA of .280 with the same amount of rings….This is a terrible argument LA. this game revolves around numbers and it always has. Babe Ruth made the most money because he was a spectacle. why was he a spectacle? because he hit more home runs than most teams combined. it’s all about the numbers my man. Bill James gave us a way to just look at those numbers in more depth and gave us more ways to judge a player than just BA, HR, and RBI.
More ways to judge a player Chris, and his effectiveness as well and on top of that the best way to utilize that player. I think it brought a new understanding to the public about what really matters and what shouldn’t be done as well as providing a relative value on a Greg Luzinski (lumbering HR hitter) type vs. Kevin Mcreynolds (less HR’s better all around) type. When James started writing the public didn’t even have access to stats other than boxscore and that doesn’t really tell the whole story.
Greg Luzinski was a slow footed power hitter who struck out a lot and walked a lot, who hit in Veteran’s stadium.
Kevin McReynolds didn’t strike out as much, not as much of a power hitter, much better base runner and fielder and played most of his career in big parks.
What’s your point?
LA knows that, you know that, I know that.
Nobody here believes that Ty Cobb is in the HOF cuz he’s a nice guy.
What LA is referring to is sabermetrics.
You know that so there’s no need to say something like Derek Jeter will make the HOF because of intangibles because WE ALL KNOW THAT. We all know he will make it because of his numbers.
Long story short – we can tell everything we need to know about a ballplayer’s stats with AB, R, H, D, T, HR, RBI, .AVG, BB, K, SB
If a guy hits .297 in 500 ABs w/35 HRs and 109 RBIs he’ll most likely be in the middle of the order driving in runs because that’s what hitters like that are supposed to do. Knowing the EXACT .OBP number is useless, unless of course you want to know if he walks a lot. Yes, that does help. But most good hitters have good .OBPs anyway.
OPS is just lazy.
All saber does is is work backwards and arrive at all those same conclusions. Of course there’s a couple of good new stats too but i’m saying overall.
Bill James wastes a lot of time with his analysis’s because a lot are long winded formulas that only arrive right back to where we started from.
I’m not into it and like I said, if I was a GM and my bosses told me to work with a saber guy i would with no problem, just as long as common sense prevails.
And a lot of saber takes you away from common sense and using your own intuition. If you use common sense you’ll be okay.
OPS is lazy…can you explain that? I don’t get what you mean.
Common sense and intuition like Gene Mauch did?
again…nice try agee…you better quit while you have a some respectability left.
Sure you can pick Gene Mauch but i can say the same thing about Mike Scoscia, Bobby Cox…Gil Hodges..Davey Johnson..
good try at sarcasm agee even though you’re trying to do it with a smile.
Chris,
What I mean by OPS is lazy is this..
If I was a GM and you were my hired saber/stat underling and you came into my office saying hey..check out so and so…his .OPS is .921 or whatever.
I’m gonna tell you, good job but can you please break that down into ABs, D, T, HR, RBIs? In fact give me R, BB, & K too.
THEN I would be able to make a judgement.
Would you want YOUR season to be referred to as an OPS? I wouldn’t. I would want the people to know how many doubles I hit, how many triples I hit, how many HRs i hit and so on.
Having it all rolled up into an OPS does me no good and doesn’t tell me what i want to know.
I have plenty of respectability Bayonne, and respect enough for the game that I’m willing to look at it from every possible angle.
Too many runs left on the table. With Gil’s starters and low octane O I can understand it. Soccia doesn’t bunt like Cox and Davey did and really with the O those two guys had….
saying OPS is lazy is like saying it is lazy when someone tells you their age in years instead of days. tell me the days so i am forced to do the math in my head to make it a useful number! i want information delivered to me in the most inefficient way possible!
I beg to differ Bayonne. OPS tells the whole story just fine. it means you get on base and it means you hit for power. that’s all I need to know. If someone comes into my office and says they got a player with an OPS of .921 I say get him a uniform. name me a player that had an OPS of .921 this year that doesn’t hit for power. I don’t need to know how many runs he scored or how many doubles or homeruns or RBI he hit. the OPS tells me he had plenty of them.
top five OPS in the major leagues this year: Josh Hamilton, Miguel Cabrera, Joey Votto, Albert Pujols, Jose Bautista
probable NL MVP, Joey Votto, highest OPS in the NL.
probable AL MVP, Josh Hamilton, highest OPS in the AL.
end of story.
Nope, not end of story – I’m going to want to know more than just the .OPS. It’s ridiculous to just blindly give the top 5 OPS guys and not want to know what else they did.
I wouldn’t operate that way, that’s for sure.
So the guy with the highest OPS may win the NL MVP – my, what a shock, how unusual. Gotta know more than that.
I dont’ care what Miguel Cabrera OPS is, if i can help it i don’t want a cancer like him on my team but that’s me. I can’t stand guys who jog to 1B and have bad attitudes.
As for Josh Hamilton? Correct – when you hit .359 with 32 HRs you’re probably gonna have a high OPS most likely – duh. And this wasn’t even a hitter’s year.
It’s not that simple – don’t be lazy with just OPS.
agee you’re grasping at straws now.
You were trying be a wise-ass with me when I said to rely on common sense. You responded with Gene Mauch had common sense too…I KNOW where you were going with that.
listing things you don’t like or like about all the good managers I named is….i don’t know what it is…you’re going off topic again cuz you lost all your other points.
agee – don’t play with the big boys, ok?
Bayonne what more do you need to know than that? a lineup with those five guys in it scores more runs than ANYBODY. I don’t care how much of a cancer Cabrera is. a lineup of Cabreras scores more runs if they walk to first base or if they do cartwheels to first base. You may construct a team with cool dudes that run to their position but you will not win.
A lineup with those 5 TALENTED PLAYERS will score more runs than anybody – you got that right.
It’s because they are TALENTED PLAYERS. Unfortunately in real life all 5 would never be on the same team. I’m guessing you’re a fantasy baseball person am I correct?
A lot more to baseball than that, son.
cabrera is a clubhouse cancer and you wouldnt take him? is your goal to make the worst team possible?
this is why i like this site. it fascinates me when people are wildly irrational. like you think they are just kidding, because they couldnt be so stupid. but they are not. its awesome!
“If I was a GM and you were my hired saber/stat underling and you came into my office saying hey..check out so and so…his .OPS is .921 or whatever.
I’m gonna tell you, good job but can you please break that down into ABs, D, T, HR, RBIs? In fact give me R, BB, & K too.”
That’s exactly what sabermetrics is used for, to take into account every stat, every outcome of a player’s play during a season and make sense of the overall picture. A stat like wOBA combines every hit, walk, HBP into one number that shows how many runs that a team scored was contributed by the player. Also BB% and K% are more useful because BB’s and K’s depends on # of PA. You are essentially arguing that sabermetrics is useful.
Chris’s argument about OPS is wrong because OPS weighs OBP and SLG equally when OBP actually contributes twice as much to scoring runs as SLG.
Well you and Chris can argue about .OPS but I know what I want right? And I know what I’m looking for.
Like I said before it’s 2010 and yea if I was a GM and had to employ a saber guy I would. He could run all the numbers he wants by me, and I loved stats as a kid, but bottom line I’m gonna find what I’m looking for. OPS doesn’t tell it to me the way I want it. AB, R, H, D, T, HR, RBI, BB, K,AVG, SB pretty much tells me the whole story if I just want a guy’s stats. Oh, I’ll get the OBP stat believe me. It’s good to know if a guy walks a lot too but I look at the more important things first.
“Bill James ruined this game.”
No, the owners ruined the game and tore up the fans loyalty and the social fabric of communities with their jumping cities. I lived through two of them in New York with the Dodgers and the Giants leaving in the late ’50′s. It was a shame.
Great point Des. Great point.
Wrong,
Not pointless. Also you forget that the argument is debating only a small part of baseball.
What about infield and outfield defensive strategy? Do you know what hand you’re supposed to use when diving back to 1B and what part of the base it should touch?
Do you know what turn left or turn right for an outfielder means? And if you do can you name me one drill that helps prepare for that?
Is there such a thing as backing up the cutoff man? Name me 3 drills for catchers to help them block balls better.
If you don’t know the answer to any of those questions off the top of your head than we have a LOT more baseball to discuss. Probably hours and hours and hours more.
wrong to t agee, not you LAMetsfan..You brought up a fantastic point
what does that have to do with player analysis? do GMs say “i wont sign that slugger that bashes home runs because i will have to spend 15 minutes reminding him of some minor fundamental thing that i actually wont have to do since the dude has been playing ball since he was two years old, all day every day in the dominican republic”
Left hand, corner farthest from the plate and closest to 2B. Turn left turn right refers to an outfielders first cross step toward’s the spot the ball is going to wind up at. Don’t know the name of the drill. Double cut off. Don’t know the names of blocking drills but I can tell you the idea is to cup your body to get the ball to drop rather than rebound, to where both bare hand and glove are waiting in between your legs palm up with arms against the body. None of these techniques cannot be coached to a player who has a better fit for your team than another one identified by looking at his stats. In reality these coaching techniques that your referring to are high school aged drills. That’s not what we are talking about on this website. We’re talking about building or tweaking a roster. We’re talking about whether OBP or batting avg. is more conducive to run scoring. Is the stolen base and it’s risk more valuable than the sac bunt and it’s risk? How do both stand up against the hit and run? When should you consider the IBB? Even if you hate the sac bunt should you NEVER do it? How bad a defender is your LFer? Bad enough that you MUST take him out in the 7th? Maybe not against a RH GB pitcher but how about a LH fly ball pitcher? Without the coaching techniques you discuss above, no player would be in a position to be considered a prospect let alone a Major Leaguer but that’s not really the discussion here. I still don’t accept baseball people not looking at relevant information nor do I understand stat people improperly applying stats to in game or roster make up decisions.
Wrong again,
Those drills are not limited to HS. Wanna bet me?
Batting average is more conducive to run-scoring. Guys who hit .300 usually drive in more than guys who hit .230, unless the .230 hitter has 40 HRS and the .300 hitter is a singles hitter. I know…we’re gonna go around in circles.
Stolen base sacrifice risks depend on the situation. No need to break it down into another one of your long-winded posts. You know what I mean and I know you know.
Yes I would sac bunt with a weak hitting pitcher up and an runner on 1b w/1 out. If I have a good hitting pitcher up than I may try to steal 2B because even if he’s thrown out and the pitcher makes 3rd out you have the leadoff batter leading off next inning.
When should one consider an intentional walk? Guess. Think of an important situation that warrants it and there you go.
If you use a defensive replacement in late innings – do it.
Don’t worry about the details…the details will dictate what you should do when it happens.
What you mean to say is you don’t accept baseball people looking at information YOU deem relevant.
Don’t worry, If I was a GM i would look at all the information you like to talk about but bottom line is i would trust my own instincts.
good effort agee.
omar trusted his intincts
Who are those .300 hitters going to drive in? The guy that’s on 23% of the time? Tough question here. Which guy would you want leading off the 9th inning in a game your trailing 2-1. The .300 BA .315 OB or the .260 BA .400 OB?
agee,
don’t try and come into the lion’s den because you’re going to lose. Good effort though.
No tough question at all. All teams want their 1 & 2 hitter to have high .OBP BUT sometimes it doesn’t work that way if you’re lineup has a certain chemistry. Jeter batted leadoff for Yanks, Mookie Wilson and his low OPB won a title w/Mets.
Who do I want leading off the 9th inning of a game down 2-1? It depends. There is no set science that answers that question.
Ideally i would want a power guy leading off.
Would I want a high .OBP guy to lead off? Absolutely..BUT..in any one game one of my high OBP guys may be in slump. If another hitter is having a good game and he’s a .231 hitter with bad OBP i may want him leading off because he’s having a good game.
Also you may want a pinch hitter who has certain success against a pitcher to lead off that game too.
Many answers…agee…i would advise to stop but if you want to keep trying be my guest
We don’t get to pick who we want leading off in the 9th. It’s whoever’s up or someone off the bench but I’ve played millions of games in my life and I know who I want. I want the high OB guy and trust me, Ive put my high OB guys in front of my power guys so I’ve given myself every chance. Even if it’s at the bottom of the order I’ve got OB guys because I make sure that’s the kind of team we have. Getting your power guys more AB’s AND more AB’s with runners on gets you the most runs. That combined with good defense gets you the most wins and that is what the game is all about.
bayonne, there is one simple fact that you cant seem to grasp. the basic offensive stat most closely tied to run production is OBP. if you entire team gets on base, they will score a ton of run. they were wear pitchers out like crazy. it isnt about power, it isnt about “clutch”, it isnt even about average. it is about getting on base, not making an out. thats how you score runs. that is something you should accept.
You actually believe they don’t do blocking drills at the major league level????? HS and Major Leagues both hit off the tee, transfer drills, etc.
There are TONS of practice drills utilized by both levels.
ALL of those techniques can be used to coach ANY player no matter what fit for your team. Don’t make it more complicated than it is. Even all stars have to maintain their skills.
I can’t really speak from any expertise Bayonne, because I never played pro baseball, never was a prospect, never even played against anyone who made it above A ball. I haven’t been coached in over 30 years. But I have continued to play baseball and softball. Never stopped. In fact I’ll be playing my first baseball game as a 50 year old in a couple of weeks and fully expect to be playing into my 60′s too. While my technique in certain areas and my overall skill may not be that great I know what I can do, I love winning baseball games and I know what strategies help to win those games. The drills that prospects and Major Leaguers do I cannot comment on, I just don’t know. For the last 30 years our drills have been limited to a few tune up practices in the spring, throwing at the Y in the winter and drinking beer in the parking lot but it’s still more fun than playing golf, fishing or any of those other old man hobbies.
Has anyone noticed that there are 5 posts since this post that with all their comments combined have about 103 less comments than this post does?
Point being doesn’t it get tired to keep just running in circles with no headway ever made?
Hey Jerz….good point.
Guess who?
hmm lemme guess. Is it 4D?
Bingo!
For some reason or other, it wouldn’t let me post here using my usual name. Maybe it’s too long.
I’ll tell you what gave you away. It was your avatar.
“However, Alderson will not use sabermetrics as the end-all to running an organization. He will use every tool in his arsenal to build a winner and that includes using his own instincts and scouting reports as well. He will consider things like character because he himself is a man of integrity. This is what he’s done his entire career, and he’s not suddenly going to stop now.”
You do realize that that basically summarizes the AmazinAvenue post you’re responding to, right?