31
2010
I Wonder If Alderson Is Interested In Carl Crawford?
An article by 
Steve Serby of the NY Post chatted with Sandy Alderson and gives us some more 411 on the new Mets GM.
Q: A Billy Martin anecdote from Oakland?
A: Billy thought he was the general manager as well as the manager of the Oakland A’s. So one day, it became my responsibility to inform him that he wasn’t the general manager, that he was the manager only. And he reacted to that (chuckle) organizational position by basically destroying his manager’s office in Oakland.
Q: Your definition of a Sandy Alderson ballplayer?
A: Rickey Henderson. A guy with power, speed, tremendously selective at the plate and an excellent defender. And somebody that had a flair about him that made watching him play just a joy.
Q: You were critical of Alex Rodriguez’s contract (10 years, $252 million) with Texas at the time. As you look back on it now, have your views changed at all?
A: Did everybody think I was wrong before (smile)? I think it was one of those situations where first of all, it was my job to be the voice of Major League Baseball on those issues, so to some extent I was only filling that responsibility at the winter meetings. In my view, there wasn’t any way to defend that contract. It represented a dangerous precedent, not only in terms of the amount of money it represented, but also the length of time.
Q: Does a New York baseball manager need to have certain qualities?
A: Based on my experience (at his introductory press conference), I’d say yes (smiles). With 60 or so (media members) in that room, and maybe 20 to 30 on a day-by-day, game-by-game basis, I think one has to recognize that there are certain aspects to the job here that don’t exist elsewhere. . . . I think the intensity is there from the beginning. It’s not just the quantity of coverage. It’s also the quality of the coverage . . . the competitiveness of that coverage . . . the ability to respond to those dynamics.
I included just a few snippets here, but you should really check out the complete interview which is pretty excellent and includes his recollections of the 1969 and 1986 Mets, his Vietnam War experience, and his wife’s battle with breast cancer.
Alderson is quite an extraordinary person and the more you learn about him the more there is to like.
I was particularly intrigued when he answered Rickey Henderson as what he would call a Sandy Alderson type player.
It’s interesting to me because a player very similar in style to Rickey Henderson will be on the market next month, Rays outfielder Carl Crawford.
Things that make you go hmmm…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
Went to my first Mets game, a Mayors Trophy game at Shea, in '73. We beat the Yankees 8-4 and I was hooked. I marched in two Banner Day parades, and before the Grand Slam single, there was the "Hendu Can Do" grand slam - I was there. I've collected Mets memorabilia all my life and started Mets Merized Online to feed my addiction.
250 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 26 | 17 | .605 | - |
| Nationals | 25 | 17 | .595 | 0.5 |
| Marlins | 23 | 19 | .548 | 2.5 |
| Mets | 22 | 20 | .524 | 3.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 22 | .488 | 5.0 |
Last updated: 05/22/2012
Recent Comments
- Nathan: on On The Road With Petey Pete: Wet & Soggy In New Britain: I am seriously jealous. Work has always...
- Nathan: on 2012 MLB Draft: OF David Dahl, SS Carlos Correa, C Stryker Trahan: I love draft time. It's like the...
- Joey D.: on Morning Grind: We Sure Could Use Someone Like Angel Pagan In Centerfield Right Now: Fonzi, Forgot to add to my assessment that...
- Joey D.: on Morning Grind: We Sure Could Use Someone Like Angel Pagan In Centerfield Right Now: Hi Fonzie, Oh, I agree that anyone who...
- Petey Pete: on On The Road With Petey Pete: Wet & Soggy In New Britain: Seriously? I may just want to take...
MMO Live Chat
Write Your Own Mets Post
Joe, he should have interest in Crawford if he can deal Beltran w/Pagan sliding to CF we’ll need a new corner; but what part of minimal F/A marketing got lost in translation?
While I’m admittedly an old fashioned Eyesvaluator & certainly a Sabre-novice, I used the few stats Sandy seemed to indicate as key offensive measurements as well as the ALL IMPORTANT $$$/AGE CONSIDERATIONS to conclude few critical alterations can be anticipated outdside of the obvious fan appreciation Castillo potential move & a cost effective Beltran relocation could be on the near horizon for 2011. here’s a little of what I’ve discovered concerning our starting 8 positioners should season commence today:
PLAYER POS AGE* CAREER OBP/2010 OBP/ CAREER SLG% 2011 SALARY
THOLE C 25 .357 .357 .373 MIN
DAVIS 1B 24 .351 .351 .791 MIN
CASTILLO 2B 35 .368 .337 .351 6M
WRIGHT 3B 29 .383 .354 .516 14M
REYES SS 28 .375 .321 .434 11M OPTION
BAY LF 33 .374 .347 .508 16M
BELTRAN CF 34 .359 .341 .484 18.5M
PAGAN RF 30 .335 .340 .435 (?) ARBI ELIG
TO MY SABRENOVICE EYES THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE A RELATIVELY SOLID SET OF NUMBERS FROM A RELATIVELY YOUNG GROUP OF STARTING PLAYERS. AS CITIFIELD WAS CONSTRUCTED DELIBERATELY TO FAVOR OBP OVER HR SLUGGERS OUTSIDE OF 2B SALARY RELIEF & FAN APPEASEMENT THERE WOULD NOT SEEM TO BE ANY URGENT NEED TO UPGRADE WITH GREATER PRODUCTIVITY OR YOUNGER AGE. FROM A SABREMETRIC VIEW, THERE WOULD NOT BE MUCH POTENTIAL/PROBABLE LOSS IN OFFENSE BY REPLACING BELTRAN IN CF WITH PAGAN WHO HAS PROVEN TO BE AT LEAST CAPABLE OF CONTRIBUTING NEAR THE SAME QUALITY GROUND COVERAGE DEFENSIVELY WITH NEAR THE SAME PRODUCTIVITY FOR NEARLY 15M LESS WHILE GOING FROM A PLAYER(BELTRAN) BEYOND HIS PRIME(28-32) BY 2 YRS TO ONE(PAGAN) CLEARLY IN THE MIDDLE OF WHAT SHOULD BE HIS HIGHEST LEVEL OF PRODUCTIVITY. WHOEVER SANDY CHOOSES AS THE RF REPLACEMENT BECOMES A KEY CONSIDERATION
*FOOTNOTE AGES SHOWN ARE AS OF THE 2011 SEASON CURRENT +1Y
Good stuff, M62fan, I have to wonder about signing Crawford to a contract that will take him into his late 30′s. For a player whose game is based on speed why spend a ton on an aging player? Been there done that, look how Beltran has worked out. I’d rather spend the $ on pitching. And if Alderson is unable to unload Beltran this winter, it’s a moot point, as there will be no room to add an outfielder, anyway. It would be truly awesome if he could find a way to dump Bay, but I fear that is impossible. At least we already have “Rickey Lite” on the team in last years’ Met MVP, Angel Pagan.
Pete, more than likely Crawford’s a moot point & the new corner comes from within the various servicable options we’ve seen(Duda,Carter,Evans,F-Mart,et al.) I’d certainly hope the new mngr realizes the superior value a Reyes,Pagan 1,2 punch can ultimately produce over 150-162 games. It would be remarkable to actually have a #2 capable of DRIVING those fastballs Reyes on base produces intead of plunking them just behind infielder range, & please NO MORE SAC BUNTING JOSE TO 2B!Outs are too precous to be squandered away uselessly with a quality “driver” @ #2 Reyes is already in scoring position @ 1B. Jose accounts for a ton of runs(RBI+R-HR) every season & that has never been emphasised enough with LoDuca & Castillo slapping fastballs through seams instead of driving them to the gaps.
I must query your “aging player” analogy as Crawford will only be 30 this upcoming season(2011) same age as Angel & smack dab dead center of his PRIME PRODUCTIVITY YEARS(28-32)
Glancing @ Bay’s career #s in OBP & SLG%, I’m inclined to believe he’ll “be on a mission” next season & certainly should justify his $$$ with a suitable production bounceback much as Wright accomplished going from 10 to 29HR. My biggest concern for this team remains the lack of a true #4 beast. Too bad we didn’t get a DNA swab for cloning purposes from STRAW when he was still rostrered with us the ensuing product would just about be ready to complete our lineup(lol)
Boy, I could not agree with you more. That is what the Mets need THE MOST, (a true run producer/cleanup hitter/ offensive monster).Is it only me,or does anybody else noticed how much we needed a true cleanup hitter the past 2 seasons? For most of the 3 and a quarter seasons that Delgado played for the Mets (06, 07, 08, the first month and a half of 2009), the Mets were in first place (they even won the division by 12 games in 06, remember?) Where have you gone, Carlos Delgado? And also a little more power from 2nd base (remember Tony Valentin and his 18 hr’s and 62 RBI’s in 06? ). Having Castillo there is truly killing us.
Finally, I no longer feel like a soloist singing the needs for “A PRESENCE” batting fouth. To me it goes back further all the way back to Omar’s initial planned lineup in which he envisioned Delgado joining Perdro & Beltran as his sparking new additions for his innaugral lineup. nfortunately Bernazard went all “gansta”(in his own way) with gentile giant, Delgado, insulting him beyond repair & Omar’s personal “dreamteam” had to wait. If u look at the #s Floyd put up in ‘;05 add in Delgado & not even stonefaced/dtoneheaded Howe could’ve derailed that train.
Having “THE PRESENCE” is too often overlooked by those who discount the human factor of baseball in favor of the statistician factor; but certainly is a FEATURED FEAR FACTOR the moment flesh & blood replaces video images on actual grass & not Strat-o-matic cards on a coffee table. “THE PRESENCE’S” effect ts 3 lineup positions #3 gets better pitches in the zone, #4 obviously is what HE IS, & #5 gets the reduced adrenelin effect aka the ‘exhale edge’ as the pitcher relaxes once past the #4 threat. If that drops the heater a mere 2-3 mph so be it, just look at the feast Carter devoured after Steaw was passed. Those are the more appropriate stat effects that ripple through grass & not on video or gameboards. where Fantasies dissipate & Realties RULE! Why the actual lineup is greater than the sum of it’s parts(see SF).
Getting real solid professional AB’s and no glaring weaknesses in your 3-6 is real important too. Delgado and Floyd were obviously better against RHP but weren’t pushovers against LHP. Beltran has even splits against both. This allowed Wright to see better pitches against RHP and to his credit he came through big time which only made Delgado, Beltran and Floyd see better pitches too. Shawn Greene hit LHP as well. Lots of times what your able to do is dependent on what other guys in the line up can do. That 2006 line up was also stretched well with two extra hitters we haven’t had in Valentin and La Duca. Realistically speaking the only “break” a pitcher got in the line up was the Pitcher. We’ve given many pitchers a “break” since those days.
Personally I preferred your idea of cryogenically freezing Piazza ’62. Jose has got to get OB more, especially from the left side. His OB has dropped in each of the last 3 years to now well below the league average. Pagan’s OB is also very low from the right side (.298) Actually Thole would probably be the best choice for a #2 hitter as he has a .381 OB and a patient approach to his AB’s as well. I could see Reyes stealing 2B and at the worst be pushed to 3B on a ground out, scoring on a single or even being pushed to 2B with a walk and without the risk of the SB. (ie only using the SB in pitchers counts) Thole hits the ball on the ground to the right side quite often and the hit and run would open a lot of holes for him. Overall having the stolen base option in front of a singles hitter is a better use of it risk wise and having a high OB guy in front of your HR hitters will lead to scoring more runs when they do hit the HR.
T, I CERTAINLY BELIEVE PAGAN’S OBP #S INCREASE WITH REYES ON FIRST. A DYNAMIC WE HAVEN’T SEEN ENOUGH OF. CONSIDERING STATS CHANGE AS ENVIRONEMENTS CHANGE, MY PREFERRED #2 IS NOT THOLE(A YOUNGER LoDUCA TYPE) BUT EITHER BELTRAN OTR PAGAN IN THE #2 SLOT REGULARLY DRIVING THOSE REYES INDUCED FASTBALLS WITH TOTAL AUTHORITY BEING ABLE TO ANTICIPATE HEAT & ADJUST TO THE OCCASIONAL “SUPRISE” SLOP, THOLE MAY SOMEDAY BE THE RIGHT ANSWER; BUT NOT YET, TOO INEXPERIENCED IN MY OPINION.
Thole at #2 (against RHP only, he should sit against LHP) would be taking a chance I do agree there but his OB% is wasted at the bottom. It’s really only good for turning the line up over more often (which IS important) but lacking high OB guys at the top doesn’t make sense. I know it’s radical but having speed and stolen bases at the bottom with a sac bunt opportunity from the pitcher, followed by high OB singles hitters at the top would score more runs. The downfall of the SB in front of a HR hitter is quite severe and the benefit of a SB in front of a singles hitter is so much more beneficial than in front of a HR hitter. Beltran is the only hitter in the line up that both RHP and LHP have a problem with and is neccesary as protection for Wright, and really even Bay too and the HIS SB’s (provided he can) would come in front of non HR hitters. I’d consider against RHP Pagan .35%, Thole .38%, Davis 34%, Wright 36%, Beltran 36%, Bay 36% Reyes 31%, Castillo 37% pitcher. Obviously the biggest risks are Thole and Davis. Thole to continue to get on at a high rate and Davis to make the most of his dual protection behind him against RHP. Bay is the guy that gets screwed here but we have what we have and there’s not much we can do about it. Reyes of course gets pissed off and leaves via FA so it’s not worth doing this but I know, as long as Thole AND Davis come through against RHP this is the line up that makes the most sense and bare minimum, 1st inning we see 20 pitches instead of just 10. What do you think ’62?
T, I’m just a simple guy who believes baseball is best served through simplification & not complication. what u propose is intersesting inasmuch as it seems to fly directly into the face of some very long tested baseball consideratuions like you load speed on top your best overall hitter third, your big power thumpers fourth & fifth, your lightest hhitter 8th.
One stat I tend to value is what I consider to be Run Creation or RC(calculted by a formula of RS+RBI-HR) in this regard Reyes has a particularly high value throughout his career of creating 1.01 runs per game played. Rollins is in the same neighborhood @ 1.00/G & Ramirez slightly over @ 1.1/G. All 3 have played the most significant portion of their games in leadoff position. AL leadoffers have a supposed advantage through increase RBI oportunities. As a traditionalist I still believe there is a VOID amidst our present lineup @ regarding cleanup position. Much more important to me than statistical analysis is the effect personnel surrounding any player’s ABs can favor or adversly effect another’s contributions. As I’ve indicated as a singular real effect “A PRESENCE” has as #4 makes both #3 & #5 more productive. The best example of which, in NYM history, occured in ’86 whereby Keith got pitched to in the zone more often due to Straw’s ON-DECK STATUS. Just as every NYM fan sat glued in place during a Straw AB, every opposing pitcher was summoning up his total adrenal arsenal to weather that potentuial moment, once past, the ensuing exhale & glandular reduction most likely reduced the mph on subsequent offerings to Kid while the relative Sabremetrics of that lineup may suggest a better strategy there is no accounting for the psychological impact specific sequencing of batters can have upon opposing pitchers certainly Cal Schiraldi’s ‘;86 seasonal numbers of 1.00WHIP & .201 BAA
would not have lent credence to expecting the near breakdown nerve disintegration experienced that series.
Stats are a tool for indicating probabilities sctual flesh & blood are counter intuitive derailers of stats.
I hope this is as intelligible on paper as it is in my head, I’ve now got an immense HEADACHE thanks for nothing T(lol)
Unless you see a move towards getting rid of some payroll I would not hold my breath on Crawford signing with Mets. He has repeatedly said as much that the Mets don’t look to be big players on the free agent market this year.
I would love to see Crawford here, and I totally agree that he is a “Sandy Alderson” type player. Has he got the money? Yes if he moves bay he has the money and the perfect position. Why not? No reason to simply dismiss the possibility.
If the new FO can move Bay and his contract for anything remotely useful or not toxic (like an even worse contract), then they really are miracle workers.
I would be happy as a clam to move Bay along and unclog LF for the next 4 years. I just don’t expect it to happen. And I don’t want to unclog it just to give the same contract to Crawford.
That’s not that crazy a thought either,
I like Bay and sure he can come back but you never know that he may prefer to play in a more hitter friendly park. I can definitely see a team wanting him.
I agree, I think it’s not impossible to move Bay. But I also agree that he’s going to be real productive this year and I WOULDN’T move him.
I have to agree also in that I find it hard to believe that Bay will follow 2010 with another subpar season. Let’s just hope the whole concussion thing is a thing of the past in 2011.
You’re not getting anyone to take Bay. Period. If no one wanted him when he cost just money, why would anyone want him now? He just came off a year where he was horrible at the plate, showed no power, and had a serious head injury. If you want to move someone its Beltran. But we wont get ANYTHING of value unless we eat 60% or more of his contract. We are better off going ofter pitching, drafting extremely well, and signing big time IFA’s this year.
True I think most would agree that moving Bay would be considered a miracle at the least.
Even Beltran would prob require like you said the Mets paying a portion of that salary.
I have maintained that the Mets would be smart to consider heavily what the market is for Pagan right now cause his value may never be higher than it is today and he could fetch a decent player in return that will help the Mets.
I disagree North Jersey, Your thinking is correct (buy low sell high) but I believe Angel has 3-4 years left at the top of his game. He’s in great physical condition, runs like the wind, has a great arm and (now) good instincts. Under team control for the next 2 years he’ll probably cost no more than 4 per year and with Beltran leaving after this year we have no one here or on the horizon who can play CF. That kid covers more ground out there then Carlos would have in his best days. He gets on against RHP better than average, hits 2B, 3B and line drive HR’s. If he could just develop a push bunt towards 1B/2B against LHP he easily raises his OB against LHP .40 points (to .340, there is no way a LHP, falling toward 3B beats him to the bag and that is the only part of his game he’s not above league avg for a CFer. With Bay in LF at Citi and who know’s who in RF in 2012 his D is vital. Now if he can only stay on the field like he did last year.
I understand your reasoning and I can relate with wanting to hold on to Pagan. I luv da kid. To me he was the mvp of 2010. Yet I have seen the Mets hold on to players a year too long and be burned time and again for doing so. So I guess I just am concerned this may be just another one of those held on too long type of scenarios.
But I do hope I am wrong and Pagan is all you suggest he may be in 2011 and beyond.
I think you are both right. but it all comes down to value. thats what building a winner is all about. and the question is, will Pagan have more vlue now at 29 after the year he had, or in 3-4 years when he’s 33 and maybe not playing so well anymore. and I think the answer is now. we have to strike while the iron is hot. North is right we’ve seen it too many times. The Mets NEVER get full value. which is why they pay the MOST in the mlb per win in the last decade **fact.
I know what your saying North Jersey, in the position we are in right now nothing can really be overlooked. I just feel that Pagan has a great chance of being a positive bridge between what we are and what we will hopefully become and at the least could net us a couple of high picks in June 2013 although I do think there is a good chance of getting something really good from him now and even after, we no longer have him under control. Getting a solid offensive contribution from the 4 main defensive positions whether by one complete or two platoon players is the key. It looks like there could be light at 2B with Havens/Tejada or even Murphy/Tejada possibly and Thole w/a RH compliment. If we can keep Reyes and he can raise his OB to an acceptable level Pagan will really solidify that aspect of the roster. Platoon splits and good O/not so good D players at the other positions will make or break us but at least we can get one part of it taken care of and not in a way where decline is almost a certainty.
Understood.
Doesn’t Bay have a full no-trade clause?
STICK, WHAT’S WRONG WITH CRAFORD? WHO’D U PREFER? GROUNDRULES STATINGH”NO HITTING TO LF BECAUSE WE DON’THAVE ANYONE THERE ONLY APPLY TO P/U SANDLOT GAMES. LOL
Crawford is a perfect fit, but it isn’t the time to add another big contract. if we hadn’t signed Bay last winter, and signed someone who would just play there for one year, then signing Crawford this year would make perfect sense
I have nothing against the Mets getting Crawford but in defense of Bay I found that when he played he gave the Mets solid defense out in LF and though Crawford is 3 yrs younger and hits for a higher avg and steals way more bases. Bay gets on base more than Crawford and Bay’s ability to drive the ball into the gaps and hit for power can’t be ignored.
well, i think Bay’s power will come back next year and he’ll have a bounce back year, but there’s no guarantee it WILL come back next year. Meanwhile, Crawford is the perfect fit for this park with his speed and d.
but im not gonna go and say the Bay deal is a bad one yet. i loved this deal when it was signed
I think time will tell as far as Bay’s deal being bad or not.
I won’t go that far yet only after one season.
True there are no guarantees regarding Bay’s power but then by the same token there are no guarantees that Crawford will fit perfectly in NY either.
well if you just looked at citi field and the way carl crawford plays, it would be a great fit.
but theres always a chance he is the type who hates new york and cant handle it
I agree on paper its a great fit but that doesn’t guarantee anything.
That would have made a lot of sense.
Yes, lets get rid of Bay and/or Beltran for a 29 year old OF that relies on speed. Crawford will require a 5-7 year contract in the range of 90-120 mil. Can we please stop with this. Crawford is not worth it. I 3-4 years everyone that wants him will be b*tching that he needs to be gone and throwing fits that his contract is killing the Mets. If anything the Mets should not be concerned with the OF this year. Bay and Beltran in left and right, with Duda in RF after we trade high on Pagan(since he had a career year).
excellent idea that I havent heard anyone bring up yet. selling high on Pagan for his career year and then signing Crawford. Is there anywhere to go but down for Pagan? That’s for Sandy to decide. The Mets don’t really need another table setter in the order. Reyes, Crawford, Wright as a 1-2-3 gives me wet dreams, no homo.
His career year came at 29 Chris. Delayed by illness and then injury he has now hit his stride. He’s still working toward the big contract which he’s not getting till 2013 and who is gonna cover that big OF when Carlos is gone? Pagan’s D is vital in CF. Bay can’t defend all of LF at Citi and we don’t even know who is going to play RF after Carlos leaves at the end or middle of 2011.
The problem I have with your scenario is this.
Pagan will not be playing CF in 2011 because Beltran will be. Unless you feel the Mets should hold on to Pagan in case Beltran gets hurt again. Which is reasonable if you believe Pagan is worth more this way.
If your saying Pagan will be valuable to the Mets in 2012 once Beltran is gone then your talking about holding on to a 31 yr old centerfielder in 2012.
Unless the Mets intend on moving Beltran this off season so Pagan can move in and be the everyday CF. Pagan’s value is diminished as a everday RF in my opinion. The question then still remains. Is Pagan more valuable as a everyday RF/backup CF or in a trade?
that is an excellent point Mr. North. and in my opinion, it’s trade, hands down.
crawford makes sense if you can trade beltran, but who’s going to take beltran if they could have crawford for the same $$$.
if there was a team that can take on a beltran contract for a year, and who has 2 established outfielders and a crawford type who is a year away, but I don’t think that exists.
Unless someone comes with a minor miracle deal before the season and offers to take, Bay, Beltran, or another big salary from us, we’re stuck with them.
Hopefully they have good to great years and we can salary dump to a contender by the trade deadline in July, but either way I think SA said they wont be in the FA market on a big time basis. And Crawford is a big time basis.
Stick to getting pitching, and a solid bench for now.
what I meant to say is does crawford play second base or pitch ?
Hmm how about in comments? Can a image be embedded?
the answer is no.
i was just comparing Crawford and Pagan’s stats. obviously Crawford is better, but they’re both the same type of players and Pagan will come ALOT cheaper than Crawford.
-in 2010, Carl Crawford made 10 million.
Angel Pagan made 1.45 mil
stats:
Games- Crawford played 154 games while Pagan played 151.
ABs- Crawford has 600 while Pagan had 579
Runs scored-
Crawford: 110
Pagan: 80
but the Rays did have a much better line up than the Mets.
Hits – Crawford had 184, Pagan 168.
2B- 30 doubles for Crawford, 31 for Pagan.
3b- 13 triples for Crawford, 7 for Pagan
HR- 19 for Crawford, 11 for Pagan, but if Crawford played half his games in Citi Field that number would probably come down.
RBI- 90 for Crawford, 69 for Pagan, but again Rays had a much better lineup and no pitcher in the line up.
SB – 47 for Carl, 37 for Pagan.
SO/BB: Crawford was 46/104, Pagan was 44/97.
Batting averages: Crawford: .307
Pagan: .290
OBP: Crawford: .356
Pagan: .340
SLG: .495 for Crawford
.425 for Pagan
and an .851 OPS for Crawford and .765 for Pagan.
so Crawford is a much better player than Pagan, but im guessing he’ll get a 15 mil per year deal this winter while Pagan will just probably get a raise in arb and make about 3-4 mil next season.
so, im guessing Pagan will come 11-12 mil cheaper than Crawford, and won’t be locked up to a big contract so we can spend more money this off season and next, i think i’d rather have him right now.
Keep in mind though that Crawford has a better track record at putting up the numbers he does more consistantly than Pagan who had a breakout year in 2010.
true, but he hit well in 09 but made stupid base running mistakes all the time. this year he was an a lot better base runner this year and even better offensively.
and i just looked up both players WAR, and they were both 4.8! that’s really good
OK well I am not going to debate the merits of WAR. I am sure that is a good thing for Pagan but it still doesn’t change the fact Crawford has a better track record of putting up the numbers he does over an entire season when compared to Pagan who at 28 had a big season.
Can he continue to put up such numbers over 150 plus games remains to be seen.
It is why I have maintained the Mets should really look hard at what type of value Pagan has on the open market because his value may never be any higher.
Remember 2010 is the 1st time Pagan has played without going on a stint to the DL. Something that has followed him in the past which was a negative against him as far as could he be counted on over an entire season.
In 2010 he sure showed he could be counted on so in my opinion Alderson and the Mets will need to weigh all the above info inducing advanced statistics and decide is Pagan worth more on the roster in 2011 or in a trade.
Sorry that should of read “including” instead of “inducing”.
i agree the Mets should go see what they can find on the market for him, but that doesn’t mean they should trade him.
Pagan never showed a sign of slowing down this year. i think these numbers were real and he’ll put up around the same next year.
Keep in mind when your comparing Crawford and Pagan that Pagan plays a premium defensive position and plays it GREAT (at least he did last year) A LFer really should have much better offensive numbers than a CFer and certainly a CFer who’s defensive value is so high.
absolutely Metsrock, for NOW. but you never know, selling high on Pagan may yield us a player that could be worth 15 mil down the road. I think you have to take a chance on getting some serious value for Pagan now while you still can. That’s just my opinion. of course in no way would I mind him on the ’11 roster.
I think Rickey in his peak years dwarfed Crawford’s OBP. Plus Bay is not moveable, and Carl is not a CF. Too many things have to happen to get Crawford in here, and they may not want to even pay his price.
Rickey Henderson? If so I am confused as to why is it relevant if Rickey dwarfed Crawford or not? I am sure Crawford is far far away from being considered a Hall of Fame player.
Regarding the reality of even getting a Crawford I think most will agree the chances of that are slim.
Even if we get Crawford nothing is gonna happen unless our middle of the lineup is established.
I agree with Alderson 100% that if Beltran and Bay had full seasons our season would have been a lot different. What did he say? We would have had around 84 wins if they were healthy? I think we would have had more wins.
I can live with Reyes & Pagan at the top of our lineup as long as Beltran and Bay can give us normal full seasons or we have some type of reliable middle of the order. Will Beltran give us 550 ABs? If not we’re in trouble again. I think Bay will relax more, in my opinion Wright is still iffy because he goes through long cold streaks and fails big time under pressure. I like Ike Davis as #6, maybe he can even move up who knows. If you listen to Sandy Ike is one of the closest things to an untouchable here but with the other 3 anything can happen so we won’t be sure what our middle of the order will look like yet in 2011. To me, that’s more important than 1&2 because if our middle is fixed i can live with Reyes and Pagan.
Reyes just isn’t getting OB enough against RHP (70% of the time) and the value of his stolen bases vs. the cost of them, getting thrown out, makes him a better candidate for moving down in the line up where the value of his stolen bases would go up since he’d be on in front of more singles type hitters. The only reason not to do this would be to avoid pissing him off or if he started to become a true high OB leadoff hitter. The thing he does best offensively relative to other SS is his slugging % which for his career is right around what Ike did at 1B (a true offensive position) his rookie season.
Again,
OBP is over-rated and Just relying in the stat itself is lazy. I think just saying well Reyes isn’t getting on base enough against RHP enough means absolutely NOTHING.
Mookie Wilson in his Mets career never had as high an OBP than Lance Johnson did in his 2 seasons here. What did that add up to?
It’s not jus the stat. You gotta know who’s hitting 2nd, too. You gotta know the rest of the lineup and how it will work together.
I don’t understand if it’s just that you refuse to see or just honestly don’t see how OBP can be useful?
A person with a high OBP means he is less prone to making an out and getting on base than another person. I don’t know why that is so difficult to comprehend.
For example:
Carlos Gonzalez of the Rockies hit
.336/BA 587/AB
Joey Votto of the Reds hit
.324/BA 547/AB
This alone says they hit pretty well this season but a further look reveals the following.
Carlos Gonzalez of the Rockies had
.376/OBP
Joey Votto of the Reds had
.424/OBP
So while they are both reasonable good hitters Votto showed a much better eye at the plate getting on base more.
I know OBP is useful and I Like guys with high OBPs too. I understand how the game works, believe me. You guy just are not understand me.
I’m just saying just coming to conclusions SOLELY on the number is short-sighted and wrong. You have to look at more details about that club before coming to any conclusions.
Lance Johnson had a higher OPB in his 2 years here than Mookie Wilson did or Jose Reyes ever did And that meant what?
Lenny Randle had a higher OBP than Reyes & Wilson ever did too in 1977. So?
PS – the first things I want to know about Joey Votto are his HRs, AVG and RBI’s. If he walks a lot that’s great but that’s not what I want to know right away and that’s not what he’s paid to do. He can have a higher OBP in a worst year than this year if he walks a lot.
Exactly no one stat tell the entire story and I don’t recall anyone suggesting that one stat is all one needs to know all their is to know about a player.
That is why OBP when combined with other stats tell a better picture as I just did by showing you 1st their BA and then their OBP. One can go further than that by then looking at their hr, rbi and run production or their slg percentage.
The point is obp is not over rated as you suggested. It when combined with other stats is very useful.
It IS over-rated as I suggested, sorry.
If I didn’t respond then the conversation would have ended only talking about OBP. I made clear in my example about Votto that I would rather know his ABs, AVG, HRs and even RBIs before I want to know is OBP because how many times he walks is NOT importan.
And you forgot another thing. It’s not only combining stats it’s also about the rest of your lineup too.
Lenny Randle and Lance Johnson had seasons of higher OBPs than Reyes and Wilson ever did.
Why would you want to know the rest of their stats? You’re still coming to the same conclusion – Mets won with Reyes and Wilson.
That’s why you have to consider how ballplayers fit into your lineup as well.
That’s what you’re not understanding.
OK well let me just say
1st Votto was merely an example and you could replace him with any player you choose where you feel obp may be more relevant.
2nd if it is your personal preference that obp is over rated after what’s been told to you then I have no choice but to resoect that since it is just your opinion.
As far as the rest of the lineup playing a factor I also agree that too can be used to see why a player is having or not having success. The point continues to be that not one thing tells a story.
It is when statistics are combined that you get a true picture.
Now you may not feel obp has value the same way another person may feel BA doesn’t have value. I have no desire in continuing to try and make you understand then if you feel the way you do.
My attempt was to try and tell you why it is relevant but if you still feel it isn’t so be it.
I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
i didn’t say OBP was NOT relevant. I said it’s not as important as you guys make it out to be.
That’s what you’re not understanding. I know the game, pal.
Good then we agree that OBP is relevant.
talk about short-sighted….Lance Johnson scored 117 runs in ’96 for a worse lineup and NO power BECAUSE of his on-base percentage. so I’m not getting your “and that meant what?” question. Put Lance in front of Wright and Beltran and he scores just as many runs as Reyes and probably more. Lance Johnson was a better offensive player for the Mets than Reyes. It’ very simple Bayonne, the more runners get on, the more runs you score. Joey Votto’s RBI are only a product of his surroundings. guess what, if nobody is getting on base in front of you, you have no one to drive in. It’s no secret why Yankees/Sox games last four hours and 20 runs. because they GET ON BASE. you’re severely underrating OBP.
I think you’re agreeing with me you just don’t know it.
Actually Johnson might score less runs w/Wright in lineup cuz Johnson was always in scoring position and Wright fails under pressure, lol.
DUH – no kidding Joey Votto’s RBI’s are a product of his surroundings as you so aptly put it. I know that, I always knew that. Everybody he has EVER understood the game knows that.
I just don’t care to know his OBP because it’s not important and not what i want from him, if he walks a lot..GREAT!
Whatever makes up their lineup works great for them but it may not work the same somewhere else.
I know if nobody gets on base in front of you you get no RBI. I know that.
The original point was Reyes’ OBP and I said you have to know more than just that – including what the rest of the immediate lineup is.
Joey Votto walking is certainly more valuable than him getting out, because he now has given the guys behind him a chance to drive him in. Joey Votto with 37 hrs and 113 RBI with a .424 OBP is way more valuable than Joey Votto at 37/113 and a .360 OBP. he scored 106 runs BECAUSE of his on base percentage and letting guys behind him drive him in. If you’re not understanding that than there really is no hope and we should just stop now.
Chris,
Never so no hope about me because I DO KNOW the game.
All of that is well and good for Joey Votto but I want to win games, my MIND SET is more about winning games than individual stats. I’m sure you’ve heard professionals talk that way.
Of course if Votto is walking more that’s a good thing, i just hope he’s not walking when there are times he could be driving in runs because what if in his HIGHEST OBP year the guy behind him hits into tons of DPs?
But if Cincinnati LOSES with Votto and his 37/113/424 than what does it matter? There’s 7 other guys in that lineup.
it’s about probability dude. thats why these are percentages. understand math. you did it in 9th grade. or at least I did. you may have in 11th or 12th, if you made it that far. would you rather him get out in those situations with guys on base trying to hit pitches that he can’t hit well, or walk? the more he gets on base the more CHANCE that he is going to score. That is not opinion, that is called science.
This is the way I like it Bayonne. Of the 8 spots in the line up if 4 guys get on a lot more than average and the other 4 ALL get on a little over average and hit the shit out of the ball, your gonna score a lot more runs than if you had 4 average OB guys and the same a little over average HTSOOTB guys. For two reasons. Your HTSOOTB guys are hitting with more runners on AND their getting an extra AB every game.
That’s good theory. IF only it could work like that all the time baseball would be as easy as you guys try to make it sound.
Nice try, again.
all the other stats are a product of OBP Bayonne. if you’re not understanding this I don’t know whatto tell ya. hmm I wonder if Alex Rodriguez would’ve drove in 156 runs and scored 143 runs on the Pirates. 143!!! guess how he scored 143 runs Bayonne, with a .422 OBP.
When your dealing with success being 30% how are you going to be successful all the time? The idea is to have more success and more opportunities for success. If you get your truly good hitters more AB’s and more base runners They’re still only going to be successful 30% of the time, but with an extra AB per game and an extra runner on per success the results will be more runs and that’s the objective.
That’ good,
But you want Alex Rodrigues for his AVG, HRs and RBI’s. Not his OBP.
If you hit over .300 and walk 95 times we already know that your getting on base alot. So I don’t need to know the exact number.
oh wow agee…i never knew that!! (sarcasm)
Just hope your pitchers do the job or else all the offensive successs will land you in last place 90% of the time
I don’t want him for his OBP either. But his on- base percentage ADDED to his other numbers is what caused the Yankees to score so many runs behind him. I don’t care if Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, or Lou Gehrig are behind him, if he’s not getting on base, they’re not driving him in. OBP i more important in the first two spots in the order. As far as I’m concerned OPS is the king of all stats. give me two guys with an OBP of .380 and two guys with an OPS of 1.000 at the top of the order and I am beating ANYBODY. I don’t care who they are.
…and if I have 2 guys at the top of the order hitting .320 and have two guys hitting over 50 home runs I’m will beat everybody too.
OPS is useless and lazy to me.
Just give me the HRs, D, T, BB, AVG. I prefer KNOWING the other numbers than having them all rolled up into on OPS.
Also I want to know the RBI’s. AND THEN – when i get all that info i want to know about who the guy is. David Wright has nice numbers but I would jettison him in a nannosecond because the guy FAILS under pressure. But that’s as story for another blog.
Also naturally ARod is gonna have a high OBP and others behind him will drive him in because he’s hitting .340 every year. He’s getting hits to get all those RBIs. If he’s hitting 340 then i don’t need to know is OPB because i already know he walks a lot.
Vinny saying that just looking at a player that is hitting .300 with 95 walks is all you need to know rather than his obp.
Is like saying a player with 200 hits in a season is all you need to know that he is a good hitter than his BA.
The conversation Bayonne was about OB%. Pitching is a different topic. But since you knew what I said I’ll take it that you now agree that having a uniform high OB is the most vital part of a high functioning line up. Glad we could teach the old coach something new.
Bayonne, I know a guy whose line reads .277, 5, 47. Interested? He’s got a combined 32 extra base hits, just no power at all. How do you feel about him?
agee,
Don’t you think I KNEW you were gonna jump on that? Don’t you think i KNEW THAT?
having high uniform OBP guys at the top of your lineup is ALWAYS nice to have. Wow, you really broke some innovative ground there. Wouldn’t it be JUST GRAND if baseball was that easy?
Vital? Not necessarily. Reyes and Wilson AND Derek Jeter are not big OBP guys but their teams win.
Your number 1 & 2 hitters get on base 3 times in one game, but the number 3 hitter flies out and the number 4 hitter hits into 3 DPs that day.
But at least your 1 & 2 hitters will have outstanding OBPs at the end of the game. Really vital.
A-Rod hits .340 every year??? where are you getting your info from? he’s a career .303 hitter and hit .314 in one of the best years in history. but he walked 95 times and scored 143 runs. if he walks 35 times instead of 95 times he’s not scoring 143 runs. and if you knew anything you would know batting average is also a product of your control of the strike zone. if a-rod doesn’t walk 95 times guess what, he’s not hitting .314 because he’s swinging at more pitches out of the strike zone which probability says you’re not gonna hit as well. David Wright hit 20 points below his average this year. guess why, because his walk rate also went down almost 2% because he was swinging at more bad pitches that he can’t possibly hit well unless he’s vlad.
Ops is not really a useful stat. It really only gives a quick glance at who combines both useful parts of offense but doesn’t help identify who is the better hitter and where should he hit.
Bayonne, Derek Jeter’s career OBP is .385. You are obviously misinformed and have no clue what you are talking about, so how can we possibly take anything you are saying seriously?
no not really Chris,
I was just thinking about this year. I didn’t know that about his career. That is great that is career OPB is so high. Your point?
I’m glad it paints that broad brush over everything we spoke about.
Bayonne, You have misread my point (and everyone else’s) I said 4 guys with good OB. That means at the top AND bottom of the line up. Four guys who do not get themselves out. Four guys that Make the pitcher get them out or they get on and do the aforementioned things to the pitcher and defense and bullpen.
four guys not just two at the top.
Chris,
You knew what I was trying to say. Don’t be a wise guy.
Yeah, I really believe that ARod hit 340 every year of his career.
Maybe we should start a blog about semantics?
.340 is a far cry from .303 Bayonne. and after saying Derek Jeter isn’t an on-base guy I can’t take you seriously anymore.
agee
Ahh…. when you said 4 guys i should have automatically KNOWN that you meant 2 at the top and 2 at the bottom. Why didn’t i know that?
yeah…i misunderstood everybody. Right, ok.
When did I say Derek Jeter isn’t an on base guy? I said his OBP wasn’t that high this year. You think I don’t know Jeter is a hall of fame guy?
Good, don’t take me serious. go learn baseball, pal.
So if i say in an argument – “Babe Ruth hit 50 Hrs every year”
You’re not gonna stick to the point? You’re gonna assume I really believe that he hit 50 HRs every year..when I’m just trying to make a point?
Ho boy.
“Reyes and Wilson AND Derek Jeter are not big OBP guys but their teams win.” did I read it wrong? my god it’s like arguing with a 7 yr-old.
Well you should have known Bayonne because I talked about 4 high OB guys and 4 above average OB guys who hit the shit out of the ball. Any manager from t-ball to the Majors would automatically know that the four HTSOOTB guys would be hitting 3-6.
Bayonne, still wondering about your opinion on the .277, 5, 47 guy with a combined 32 extra base hits. Any reason you’re skirting this?
Bayonne has left to go recruit .300 hitters with a .300 OB to play on his team because it suits his style. Maybe he’ll get three hits before three outs more often than not or perhaps the other teams don’t play any D or they may not win a game this year. Again.
yeah agee,
thanks for the dumbass comment. That’s exactly what i’m going to do.
Reyes is fine. There is no reason to move him from the leadoff spot. If he stays healthy this year we all know he is going to get on base. So we don’t have worry about the exact number of times he gets on.
Vinny, maybe because of missing so much time, he has started to regress. He’s going out side of the zone way too often which makes pitchers give him MORE pitches he can’t do as much with. If he MADE the pitcher throw strikes he would get so many more good pitches to hit AND he would get on 1B for free a lot more too. No matter how well you hit the ball you can always hit it right at someone, but for a player of Reyes’ skills just getting on opens up so many more things that would make the line up function SO much better. If he’s going to get OB lower than league average hitters do then he shouldn’t be hitting lead off.
T, I may be totally wrong; but I believe Reyes’ digression in OBP may be more related to tyhe same problem Wright’s sudffering from. In consideration of the ’07 &’08 disappointments both of these homegrowns are TRYING to accomplish feats they incapable of “carrying the entire team” If they both had teammates they were confident of carrying their load both of these “kids” would resume flourishing, THAT’S JUST MY OPINION. i REFER TO BOTH AS KIDS INASMUCH AS I BELIEVE THEIR AGES & EXPERIENCE LEVELS HAVE SURPASSED THEIR MATURITY LEVELS.
’62, I agree with the maturity comment. I also feel it is a symptom of everyone in the order hacking away. Having one guy looking to increase his OB only to have the next guy getting himself out just isn’t going to add anything extra run wise. It has to be a continous effort where the pitcher knows if he walks me he’s going to have to face you who’s going to make him throw strikes too, and after you is another guy who does the same thing. That and not having huge platoon splits make a line up very difficult to pitch to. The pitcher will give me something I can do something with because if he doesn’t, he’s gonna have to give you something you can do something with only he has to do it with a runner on. And so on. When you look at the chaining of the Oriental line ups in the WBC the reason they are effective is because they all do the same thing. If you put Jeff Francouer in that line up, the introduction of just one more out would decrease the probability of scoring a run or runs from likely to just not worth the effort. In that case everyone could just grip it and rip it and it would work out the same either way.
The line up behind Mookie/Lenny was quite a bit more productive than our current line up and WAY longer too. As I recall it Lenny came up here as an OB machine and Mookie then started to concentrate on HIS OB. Lenny then tried to be a bigger hitter than he had been and the offense didn’t perform as well. You know as a manager how many more things you can do with a runner on 1B no outs compared to no one on and one out. It’s a massive difference. It adds a whole ‘nother set of concerns to the pitcher, keeps him from pitching out of the windup, getting into a rythym, opens holes in the infield and can even dictate which pitches he throws. Getting OB also adds to the pitch count and the more pitches a pitcher throws, the more chances of his making a mistake and the quicker you can get into the bullpen. The more stress he’s under and distracted by not being able to only concentrate on the batter the more chances there are of adding more base runners and the more players in your line up that won’t get themselves out by swinging at stuff off the plate, the more pitches your line up will get where they can really do damage and the more people get OB the more AB’s your best hitters will get in a game. Earning a rep for having a good eye GETS you pitches to hit and that’s invaluable when you come up with runners on second and third with two outs. That’s when (as long as the guy behind you is selective too) you get the first pitch you can drive. It’s all a chicken and egg kind of thing but getting a guy on it where it all begins.
Again,
You guys are pointing out what I said. You have to know more than just the OBP. Thanks.
Right but wouldn’t you really say that it starts with getting on?
yes, and anyone who knows anything about baseball understands this. holy geez I can’t believe this even needs to be explained. It’s like arguing with a chimpanzee.
OBP is a pointless stat. If a player has a good average they will probably have a good OBP. If a player has a bad average they will probably have a low OBP. So just look at their batting average.
All you need to do is look at AB’s, Ave, HR and some other normal stats. That will tell you pretty much everything you need to know. You can figure the rest out from there.
You would think that be true Vinny B but if you took the time to look you would see not all .300 hitters have similar OBP.
Some have a BA and OBP that hover round the .300 range while others have a BA that while rabges in the .300 range their OBP is in the mid .400 range.
Usually a further look will show you this is due to having the ability to generate walks at a better rate than others.
Yes, but if your a .300 hitter your going to be on base anyway. So I don’t need to know exact number.
Well you can have your 1&2 guys have a great game and both of them getting on base 3 times in one game. But if the number 3 hitter flies out and the number 4 hitter hits into double plays all 3 times up then what does that get you? NOTHING.
But hey, at least the 1 & 2 guys will have great OBPs at the end of the day, right?
Um…yeah…starting the game getting on base is always nice. Glad you pointed that out.
Vinny your logic is so far gone that I can’t even be a part of this anymore…last year Miguel Tejada hit .313 but had an OBP of .340 because he walked 19 times. Give me a .280 hitter in that same spot that gets on at a .360 clip with the same guys behind him and I score more runs than you ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. I can’t even believe we are arguing this.
Well if you have a player that doesn’t walk at all thats a problem. I think everyone knows that. So you can also look at how many times a player actually walks.
That’s why BB’s is an important stat.
oh my god are you actually being serious right now??? how many times you walk on top of your average is called ON-BASE PERCENTAGE.
I know that.
OBP tells you the story backwards. Aren’t you interested in how a player got that OBP? Well I would like to how they got that OBP by looking at their average and walks first. And by that point I would know if they are getting or base or not. So i don’t need the exact number.
It’s simple.
So Bayonne your saying because your 3 and 4 hitters failed with runners on the guys that did their jobs were the problem? No they did their jobs. In a business where you are successful 30% of the time you have to expect that 70% of the time you won’t be, all you can hope for is that when your 3 and 4 hitters do come through, they’ll be men on base otherwise their contributions will be wasted too and at the end of the day they’ll have hit .500 and you’ll be going home with another loss on your record. Something I would say is becoming very apparent that you are all too familiar with.
Wake me when Martin gets here. Then the entertainment begins.
Crawford has been around so long that you forget he’s only 28 years old, at least I did until I just looked him up on baseball reference. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/crawfca02.shtml What a terrific and complete player he is. What do you think he will get in free agency? Jason Bay may be a nice fit in Chicago, you think the Cubs would swap Bay and maybe Gee for Carlos Zambrano and then we can go after Crawford?
Imagine an outfield of Crawford, Beltran and Pagan. Great speed and defense and they types of players that were made for Citi Field.
Zambranno’s finished.
I dont say he’s finished, not at 29!!! He had a 3.33 ERA last season and 3.77 in 2009. Are you kidding me t agee? What Mets starting pitcher besides Johan had an ERA under 4.00, make that 5.00 in the last two seasons with a minimum of 60 appearances? Name one? If he’s washed up then according to you, lets just dump Pelfrey in the trash.
Did you see him pitch the 2nd half of last year?
[...] Mets Merized Online: I Wonder If Alderson Is Interested In Carl Crawford? [...]
[...] Mets Merized Online: I Wonder If Alderson Is Interested In Carl Crawford? [...]
You see your problem Bayonee is you don’t know what you mean.
At one point you say “i didn’t say OBP was NOT relevant.”
The insinuation of course that OBP is relevant.
Then you say “OPS is useless and lazy to me.”
Contradicting your earlier statement of “i didn’t say OBP was NOT relevant.”
I think that until you have a clear grasp of what obp is to you. There will be no way to carry on a meaningful conversation.
My apologies I mixed my obp with my OPS.
sigh….
If you really believe i don’t know what OBP is you’re just being a jerk.
I don’t like OPS because I prefer to see the breakdown, that’s all.
I can wasted a lot of time, go off topic and search for bits and pieces of sentences to copy and paste and take out of context too. But i don’t waste my time with such nonsense, clown.
Perfectly reasonable. OPS is not really a useful stat. OB and SLG are both useful stats.
Agee how can OPS not be a useful stat, but OBP and SLG can be, when OPS is just those two added together. let’s say for the sake of argument you have a career 1.000 OPS guy. he will ALWAYS be a better overall hitter than a .800 guy and will obviously be a top of the line hitter and will always hit in the middle of the order. I don’t care who it is. It means he is hitting for extraordinary power, unless he is walking 200 times. if you can give me one instance where I would be wrong I will concead defeat. Give me a 1.000 OPS guy and he is hitting third or fourth for me. I don’t need to know his name or his other stats. because his other stats are givens. If he didn’t have a good batting average, or walk, or hit for power, he wouldn’t have a 1.000 OPS.
OK Chris. Inherently this conversation is theory. Who the best players are and where should they hit. OPS tells me the combined story. I need it broken down to decide who I want and where. For instance if it were possible to have a guy who walked everytime up (1,000 OBP 0 SLG) and I could find 7 more theoretically I would score at least 24 runs every inning. If on the other hand I had 8 guys in the line up that hit a triple every 4th AB (on avg) they would also have a 1,000 OPS (.250 OB .750 SLG) but a line up composed this way would lead to 1 run every other inning (on avg) Of course the examples I’m presenting are not realistic but within every hitter OPS is going to be skewed one way or the other. I need to know which way it’s skewed for each one because while the difference in runs from my example is 216 runs vs. 4 or 5. I want to pick guys closer to the 216 (OB) than the 4 or 5 (SLG)
I see what you’re saying but let’s take it realistically for a second. walking 100 times is considered outstanding and you are are probably getting on at a .400 clip, or close to it I think we can agree. which means to have a 1.000 OPS you had to have slugged .600. a .600 slugger is hitting third or fourth for me. A 1.000 guy is not walking 200 times and not hitting for any power so he would never be hitting 1 or 2. My argument is top of the order guys is where OBP is really important. but when you are looking for the middle of the order OPS is where it’s at. Top five OPS guys of all time are Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, Bonds, Pujols. any one of those guys you wouldn’t want hitting third for you?
No. I’d take any or all of them. My theory in line up composition is Super OB 1 and 2. 3-6 a combination starting with the highest OB, lowest SLG and working it’s way toward lowest OB, highest SLG. But in order to really turn the line up over, create chaos and really screw the pitcher from a (how do you pitch to this line up perspective) I want 7 and 8 to be high OB AND base stealing threats followed by a pitcher who can bunt. Knowing how the players OPS is skewed allows me to do this the best.
agreed. and I too want the end of my order to be super OB guys because besides the obvious there’s more chances to score runs, it gets the big boys up more times in a game. That has been the demise of the mets lately is that they’ve always had two or three automatic outs at the bottom of the order. You can’t score runs like that.
You really can’t and even when we went to the Series in 2000. It was 1-5 and suffer. Believe me I’ve been on many teams like that and it’s a killer. Every time you can get a base runner from the bottom of the order OB (with no DP) it gives you a much better chance of winning. That’s why looking at platoon splits is vital. For instance did you know (in a small sample) Tejada got on base almost 38% against LHP? Granted being able to do nothing else is a one way ticket back to Panama but the fact is if we had a good LH hitting second basemen Tejada could platoon with and back up SS and play D late in the game and IF we could pair Thole 38% OB vs. RHP with a decent hitting RH hitting catcher against LHP we would have great flip flops between 2B and C and vs. LHP and RHP. Basically turning 4 imperfect players into 2 terrific one’s even if we get dicked 15% of the time on platoon split matchups. But at least there is some hope for turning the line up over.
You see and that is why you lose credibility.
Because while clearly I apologized for my misunderstanding you felt the need to resort to being a child with insults when none was warranted.
Clearly for all your talk your need to drop insults shows that you are just a insecure person that never acquired the tools that a rational adult would have in engaging people in discussion.
I have wasted my time in attempting to have a discussion with you but be assured it ends here since you are no longer worth my time.
Good,
Because i lose my patience talking with people that don’t know the game. It is a bad trait of mine so I will try not talking to people who don’t know the game, i’ll be better off.
“Vinny saying that just looking at a player that is hitting .300 with 95 walks is all you need to know rather than his obp. Is like saying a player with 200 hits in a season is all you need to know that he is a good hitter than his BA.”
No it’s not. I’ll tell you why. OBP is combining two stats. I would want to know HOW he is getting that OBP. Is it because he is getting alot hits? or is it because he walks alot? You don’t know that unless you look at his average or how many times he walks.
Batting average is just hits. If you have a good batting average I know your getting alot of hits. It tells me what the player is doing. The same can’t be said for OBP because it dosen’t tell you HOW he got it. It tells you the story backwards.
yes, and like I just said, answer me why it matters HOW the hitter got on base. is bunting for a hit more valuable than taking ball four. this is news to me. a .400 OBP is a .400 OBP. it doesn’t matter if he hit .330 and walked 50 times or hit .300 and walked 80 times.
I don’t need to know his batting average. if his OBP is .400 and has decent speed he is hitting 1 or 2 for me if he gets on 40% of the time. and then my lineup will score more runs then yours with your guys hitting .330 and never walking.
it’s very simple. the more guys get on, the more they score. which is the object of baseball. It’s not coincidence that the Yankees led baseball in OBP and were second in OPS, and led baseball in runs scored. it’s called science. i’m done with you two i’m getting a migrane.
The San Francisco Giants were 10th in NL in OBP and they may win the World Series
we are aware that you can go far with incredible pitching. san fran leads the league in ERA. presumably you are already convinced of why ERA is good and we dont need to teach you that.
but scoring runs is good and OBP is the stat most closely tied to run scoring. but thanks for reminding us that pitching is important. we are not talking about pitching right now.
Yeah but their the EXCEPTION. One that is perfectly explainable. Starting Pitching. Not to mention they got rid of some of those lower OB guys during the season. 4 young aces, or at least 3 can take you pretty far. Any Met Fan should know that. Besides look at the worst teams in OBP and tell me where they finished. It’s more important than you realize.
What about the Mets team OBP in 1969? I’m not even gonna bother looking it up
Because it’s telling me the stroy backwards. Your giving me a number and not telling me how it got there.
And if you have a 1 or 2 hitter that has a .400 OBP he probably has a great batting average. How many players hit .330 and never walk? I can’t think of any.
Ichiro Suzuki….next.
Youk has a career average lower than .300 and has a career OBP higher than Ichiro. guess what, Youk will score more in the same spot in the order. science.
“science.” lol.
I didn’t know that about Ichiro because I never looked at his stats…I know Youkilis is a good hitter. He walks alot but that isn’t the ONLY thing that makes him good Look at his other stats ok?
“these people are trying to argue with science dude”
What a ridiculous statement. There is NOTHING scientifc about what your saying. You just look at one stat and ignore everything else and that’s science?
Crazy.
he is good because his ability to judge pitches is good. he knows when to swing. thats what makes good hitters, unless they are named vlad, they have to wait for a pitch to hit. so if youa re frenchy and have an awesome swing, it doesnt matter for anything if you have no clue when to swing. thats why yook is so much better. and OBP is an indicator of ability in pitch selectiveness.
increasing your chance of scoring runs by increasing how many times you get on base is probability. that’s called science. is this even an argument?
and nobody is looking at one stat and ignoring everything else. all we are saying is OBP is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important than your beloved batting average. if you’re leading off ichiro and i’m leading off youkilis with the same guys behind them, I win. quite simple. that’s called probability. last time I checked 40% was higher than 38%.
and “i didn’t know that about ichiro” that’s exactly my point, know your facts and get your information straight before you ramble off invalid arguments.
What? You want Youk as a leadoff hitter? wow.
All I need to know is AB HR AVE and a few others normal stats like walks k’s….you know the rest. They tell me everything.
I was too lazy to look at Ichrios stats. If i would have look at his normal stats I would find out the same thing as you did about Youk being better without looking at OBP.
i’m not saying I would want Youk leading off ya numbnuts. i’m saying for the sake of argument IF he led off, he would score more runs than Ichiro and his .330 batting average because Youk gets on 40% of the time and Ichiro gets on 38% of the time. god it’s like arguing with my six year old nephew.
i would love yook as a leadoff man. leadoff men get the most AB, and you want the guys with the hi OBP to get lots of AB.
I know you didn’t mean that lol. I was just doing the SAME thing to you that you did to Bayonne. Remember how you took the Jeter comment way out of context?
I agreed with you Youk is better than Ichrio. and your nephew already knows more than you do.
Exception
if i tell you team won 100 games, would you agree that they were a great team, or would you ask how they got there? the wins are the important part! just like the OBP is important. getiing on base scores runs, period. it matters. more than AVG, more than the other basic stats. if you can tie one of the basic batting stats to winning, it is OBP. it is the most cclosely correlated with run production. this is a mathematical reality. i dunno why you cant accept it. OBP is incredibly crucial, vital. this is why frenchy caused such a firestorm, because he was so damn terrible, so a ruiner of the team. he took the fun out of the mets, because he made sure they lost. and you that refused to accept that, you got blasted, which you deserved, because you simply didnt understand the game.
these people are trying to argue with science dude. it’s not worth it.
2 guys have 400 ABs with same OBP of .350
1 – 290 AVG., 30 HRs, 100 RBIs
1 – .243 AVG, 4 HRs, 42 RBI – walks a lot
There’s a whole story there.
OBP is nice but you need to know more. Nothing has changed in 150 years.
ok now tell me the OPS of those guys.
rbi is not a relevant stat, you shouldnt even mention it.
No one said OBP was all you needed to know. What most of us are saying is, it’s where you start. As in step one of many.
or slugging% for that matter.
the first guy you mentioned prob has an OPS in the .900′s or so. so, three or four hitter. second guy not so much. bottom of the order guy. maybe top if he has speed. like i said, OBP, OPS all you need to know.
You’re gonna take the first guy,
Guarantee it.
i agree with agee that OBP isnt the only thing. but it is the most important thing of the basic stats, by far. and if you constructed a team based totally on OBP, they would be very, very good. they would lay opposing pitching staffs to waste and pile on runs like crazy. their games would take forever to watch, though.
of course you’re gonna take the first guy, obviously, because he has a higher OPS, which means he has the same OBP only he hits the shit out of the ball. So like I said, AGAIN, OBP and OPS, all you need to know. and until you can name me a player where you need to know more than those two things, aside from maybe speed, I’m not convinced otherwise.
Guys do get OB .400 and even higher but they don’t hit .400. That’s the difference.
Joey Votto had a .324 BA and a .424 OB. that means he got on 10% more than he would have if he never walked. It also means pitchers know they have to give him something or he’s going to get on for free helping him to maintain that average. Hitter’s behind Votto picked up 91 more chances for RBI’s simply because Votto walked that often. How can anyone dismiss 91 more chances of scoring a run?
you can’t Agee, but these people are thick-headed….and then have the balls to say we don’t know the game, while they’re running out their lineups of .300/.330 guys.
Again, no one is saying OBP is not important, Just over rated.
Depends what you need as a team.
As long as Votto was driving in the runners ahead of him (yes i know they have to get on base) and not having a bad month hitting into a lot of DPs then hopefully he is walking a lot.
when you fail to acknowledge that frenchy is a miserable wretch that should never have started for the mets you are saying you dont understand. when joe posts favorably about a fan poll that opposes the trading of frenchy, you are saying “i dont understand baseball”
Wait, we are running out lineups of .300/.330 guys? What lineups?
But now it all makes PERFECT sense you must one of those fantasy baseball people.
and if your gonna play fantasy GM chris, I’ll tell you if was a gm will look at everything not just one or two stats before I sign a player. I won’t sign a player who never walks at all.
right and there is the value one doesn’t see if they don’t look at OB%. 177 hits 91 walks 106 runs. How many less runs scored if he doesn’t walk so much and even more so how many runs behind him don’t score because he used up one of his teams 3 outs instead of walking. Who know’s I’m not smart enough or inclined enough to figure that out but I’ve watched and played enough to know that it all ties in together.
T Agee, you do see that your words are falling on deaf ears if you expect Bayonne to relate in any way whatsoever with what your saying by now right?
North Jersey,
You like to judge people, Like I told you yesterday just stay on the sidelines and hush.
No. But I’m concerned about the young grip it and rip its he’s coaching down in Jersey.
Don’t worry about my personal life. Believe me i could give a rat’s ass about yours
Just stick to the OBP debate
says the guy who continually hurls insults and calls people names.
like you don’t?
but vinny, a guy that bats 280 and has an OBP of 290 is terrible. absolutely terrible. because the batting average is insanely less important than the obp. why cant you get through your head?
Vinny, your boy Bayonne quieted down cause he knew he was far gone. You should do the same. You cannot argue with science. And I don’t even know why we still are.
I’m here,
Just because I didn’t respond right away means i lost the argument? No. I had to go to the post office.
Coming to more illogical conclusions?
He’s not terrible if he did that in 250 ABs, was a hacker and hit 20 HRs and drove in 50 RBIs and was a great fielder.
Maybe this player is a lefty and can only play against righties.
yes he is terrible, i dont care who you are, if you have an OPB of under 300, you are absolutely terrible. and you get enough ab over the course of the season to amass 20 hr it means your team is run by idiots and you will be enjoying october from a hunting lodge.
lol, agreed. bottom line is it matters IF you get on, not HOW you get on. Bayonne if you know the OPS and the OBP all the other stuff is a given. if you have an OPS of 1.000, OF COURSE you get on base, OF COURSE you hit homeruns, OF COURSE you drive in runs, OF COURSE you hit for decent average, OF COURSE you score runs. there’s no other way around it. all the other stuff is useless information and for show. you just need to know the result. all that stuff RESULTS in a 1.000 OPS. if you can name me a player who had an OPS of .900 and doesn’t have all those other useless stats you’re saying, then I will say you win.
Hey I told you guys if were playing fantasy GM I will NOT sign a player that doesn’t walk.
Why can’t I just use regular stats? They tell me everything i need to know. So I don’t need use OPS. And it’s less confusing because it’s not a whole bunch of statistics rolled up into one. and it’s without the complicated fromula.
we are glad to hear you wouldnt sign frenchy. he doesnt walk.
you can use regular stats, but what we are telling you is that some are more descriptive and informative than others. OBP is incredibly descriptive. more important than avg. and counting stats like rbi are not very relevant at all. you want rate stats that tell how a player performs per AB, not counting stats that describe how many times he had chances or chances with me on base. that isnt relevant.
again, i refer to frenchy. he has a terrible OBP. so if you hear that he is piling up RBI, that is evidence that he is really killing the team. why? because to pile up RBI he must be playing alot, which means he is killing the team.
LOL.
yes .380 + .540 is quite complicated….
why look at all those other stats when one number (OPS) tells you the same story? you guys STILL havent named me a player with an OPS of at least .900 that doesn’t have all these other stats you guys love so much. someone with an OPS of .900 HAS to walk, and HAS to get on base, and HAS to hit the shit out of the ball. that is where the .900 OPS came from. so why do you need to know all the exact numbers? you know they HAD to have been high.
No, OPS tells me the same story backwards.
well why don’t you name me a player that hits .360 with 60 HR that doesn’t have a .900 OPS. Aha! I got you!
That’s why your example is so bad because your asking that can’t be possible.
Now your really being a smart ass. Is it because you have nothing left?
no i’m saying why look at eight different numbers when you can look at two that tell you the same story. you just like doing things the hard way?
OBP is an old stat, it’s a good stat, it’s useful, it’s important just way over rated with the saber crowd
OPS is absolutely horrendous!
To reduce a man’s career to an OPS without knowing all the useful stuff like HR,D, T, RBI, BB, AVG you’re leaving a whole story out that can tell you a lot of things about the type of season someone’s had.
I wouldn’t want my career to be reduced to an OPS. unless of course I wasn’t as good as the numbers indicate and I played in a banbox of a park.
I want all of my numbers reviewed. I want you to see all the ways that I can help your team if i’m a player. I want you to know if i’m a clutch hitter or not and so on.
I could not begin to tell you how USELESS OPS is
once again Bayonne, you are talking about INDIVIDUAL STATS that are for SHOW and to judge an INDIVIDUALS season and career. we are talking about TEAM and WINNING. ya know, the shit that matters. do you wanna see Jason Bay hit .320 with 40 homers and 130 rbi or do you want the Mets to win 100 games? i’d like to see the latter, personally.
OPS is good for a general overview but that’s it.
right Agee but what Im sayin is OPS and OBP are all you really need in terms of building a winning offense and maximizing your chance of scoring runs. if I have two guys at the top of the order with OBP of .400 and two guys hitting 3-4 that have OPS of 1.000, than I am scoring a shit ton of runs. and I didn’t need any other stat to come to that conclusion.
About the closest you could get is Shin Soo Choi 22 HR’s 90 RBI’s and .300 BA with a .401 OB and .484 SLG total 885 OPS.
yeah right – i don’t want to see the team win.
To build a winning team i want to see ALL of a players stats, not just OPS and OBP.
And that’s just the beginning.
bayonne if you were my GM i would forbid you from seeing those stats, because you would use them improperly. for a guy that has your level of understanding, it would be dangerous for you to know that. you might pick a guy based on his rbi count or something stupid. for you just stick with OPS, ok?
a winning team, offensively, is based on OBP and OPS numbnuts. the individual numbers don’t matter. they are for the record books and the player’s trophy room.
Right Chris,
If you want to look at everything backwards.
one more thing Chris
SF Giants were 10 in league in OBP.
You want to switch the debate to pitching now?
Great point. Why are they one game away from winning the world series? Because only winning teams have high OPS and OBP.
oh and the SF Giants team batting average was .257 – very meh
HRs? Middle of the pack. I’d give you team OPS but they didn’t even bother to list it.
How about 1969 Mets too? I bet their team OBP and OPS was absolutely AWFUL. Want to now go one by one through each WS winning team since then?
Or now do we talk about pitching?
if the texas rangers had the same exact pitching as the Giants they would MURDER them. because of their higher OBP and OPS. pitching is completely besides the point of this argument. the giants are obviously in the world series because of their pitching. if they had texas pitching they would have been making tee reservations a month ago.
right and they were middle of the pack in the league in runs scored. we’re talking about scoring runs here not pitching. stick to the argument.
Chris,
If the Mets had Beltran, Reyes, Delgado, & Bay healthy in 2009 and 2010 things would be different too.
Your point?
There are plenty of teams with historic hitting and bad finishes.
Mix any pitching and any lineup with any teams in baseball history and you can imagine a lot of scenarios.
is that what you want to do now?
by winning team I mean winning offense. pitching is completely seperate. you only have to score as many runs as your pitching needs you to.
right,
we’re talking about scoring runs and their team OBP was middle of the pack – meh. Their team OPS which wasn’t even listed was probably not good also. They hit .257 as a team and were eh in HRs.
You said all you need is OPS and OBP.
Want me to keep repeating? And repeating? And repeating?
I’m talking about BUILDING a team from the BEGINNING to maximize chance of scoring and winning. you are talking the final numbers after the season has already been played. All i’m saying is OBP and OPS increases your probability of scoring runs and winning games, before you know what the final numbers are gonna be, BEFORE you know how your pitching is gonna be and how many runs you actually have to score.
I said this before:
give me two guys with on base percentages of .400 in the first two spots in the order, and then three guys with OPS of .900 in the 3-4-5, then I know I am scoring a shit ton of runs, and I didn’t need to know any other stat to come to that conclusion.
First of all this is what i said before:
Bayonne Mets Fan says:
November 1, 2010 at 4:36 pm
yeah right – i don’t want to see the team win.
To build a winning team i want to see ALL of a players stats, not just OPS and OBP.
And that’s just the beginning.
Now to your HILARIOUS latest comment:
I said this before:
give me two guys with on base percentages of .400 in the first two spots in the order, and then three guys with OPS of .900 in the 3-4-5, then I know I am scoring a shit ton of runs, and I didn’t need to know any other stat to come to that conclusion.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
If i can get my top 2 guys with OBPs of .400 which means …eh…they probably have AVGs of .320 to .340…maybe .310….or maybe even .359? Depending on how much they walk – maybe 100 walks or maybe a guy hitting .360 with 20 walks…anyway just pick one.
And put three SLUGGERS in the middle of the order. That is a great blueprint for a successful team.
Wow – I never thought of that!!! IF i were you i’d contact MLB for a job with that revolutionary, innovative brand new concept you just thought of
Have 2 great table setters and 3 big sluggers.
Good job my man. Whudda thunk?
right and you are looking at five or six numbers when I am looking at two and getting the same story. I guess I just like taking the easy street. but you can look at the other numbers if you’d like.
I’m out of here. i’m already a lot dumber having been part of this conversation. i’m gonna go pretend that i have a life.
Jeter isn’t an on base guy? Did somebody really say that?
He’s 36 years old… things change when you get older, just ask Brett Favre.
But Jeter’s OBP was over .370 12 out of 15 years… that’s pretty much the definition of an “on base guy”
Bayonne said that. The guy who’s so far removed from the game, it’s completely passed him by.
Oh yeahhhhh,
That’s what I said “Jeter is not an on base guy” Oh yeahhhhhh – those are my exact words.
Now here’s what you do – go copy some text and paste it out of context, ok?
I don’t waste time with nonsense like that
lol. this has turned comical. Bayonne I just quoted you saying Jeter wasn’t an on-base guy. doesn’t matter the context. you didn’t say Jeter wasn’t an on-base guy THIS YEAR. your words were clear and everyone saw them. you dug your own grave on this one my man. your credibility is non-existent at this point.
Nah,
I didn’t dig my own grave. Only you truly believe that I don’t know the type of player Jeter is.
But that’s the danger with arguing on the internet you have people who understand your point and you also have a segment that will jump on the slightest thing and take it out of context and if it’s 2, 3, 4 people they will run with it and make a person look bad.
I don’t play games like that.
Bayonne is a relic from the pre dead ball era.
oh boy you got me.
no jessep,
I was only referring to Jeter’s stats this year. These people are spinning things out of context. Here we go now…everything is gonna be blown out of context
nope, never said anything about this year, sorry. your word was “AREN’T”. not “wasn’t this year”. you lost my friend. but you really stood by your argument, which is commendable.
That’s why hate debating the saber crowd. They always spin your words around and run with it.
I think they do that when they have no points left. Becasue if they were right why would they need take your comments out of context?
Their argument is so weak all they can do is play word games.
Vinny, All that was done here was to refute a point about baseball theory. One way to score a run is to hit 3 singles in an inning but since history tells us on average your not going to get three singles before you get 3 outs because even the best hitters are only successful 30-33% of the time and there are far more singles than Xtra base hits so if you could just turn one of those outs into a walk your chances of scoring a run and possibly a few runs goes up so much more. It’s just about increasing your chances, not to say it’s going to work out everytime, how could it? Just that it will work out more often and with more runs when it does.
Vinny i’m still not quite understanding why it matters HOW someone got on base. if your OBP is .400 that means you are getting on base period. it doesn’t matter if you dumped the ball in front of the right fielder or took ball four and jogged to first.
in fact you could argue that a walk is better than a bloop single if no one is on base because the pitcher will throw 4 or more pitches to walk a guy. and each of those pitches is 1% of his supply for that day. a good obp guy that works a pitcher will destroy him and make it easier for everyone else. if all the batters are OBP guys the opposing picher will be hammered early.
or all the batters could be nice guys or whatever, yunno, with grit. bayonne knows what i mean.
If someone OBP is .400 great. But I want to know more. What are his Ave, HR, RBI, BB, S, D, T, R, SB, and K’s? That’s what I want to know first. After I look at that I could figure out his OBP and everything else. OBP tells you the story backwards.
if a player has a .400 OBP, you dont need to know anything more, you want him on your team, badly, and you want him to bat as often as possible. he will be a tremendous run producer.
sure, if would be amazing if the player is barry bonds and he also slugs the living crap out of it. but just getting on base that much is enough, at .400 obp you are awesome and will improve the whole team and bring many wins.
only 7 guys in the bigs has a obp over 400 this year. you want every single one of them on your team, they have names like votto and pujols hamilton and they are all spectacular contributors to their teams.
so again, you can add all the extra numbers if you want, and you will know more, but if you only know OBP, you know a hell of a lot about how much the player will contribute to run scoring and winning.
to futher illustrate the point:
the following teams led the league in team OBP:
1 yanks
2. twins
3 redsox
4. rangers
seen any correlation with teams that make the playoffs? see how OBP matters?
“OBP tells you the story backwards.” you’ve said that on more than one occasion but you still havent answered me as to why it matters HOW it happened. if the final result is the .400 what does all the other stuff matter? unless a single counts more than a walk, which I dont think it does, your argument has no validity. That’s like me saying the Giants won the world series and then you saying, ok but how many wins did they have in the regular season. what the f*** does it matter, they won the world series. a .400 OBP means you get on 40% of the time. what the hell does it matter how you did it. all the other stuff is useless when it comes down to it in the first two spots in the order. scoring runs is about probability. Sandy and Beane got it right.
So it doesn’t matter how many HR a player hits? or how many doubles and Triples? They count the same as walk? Crazy.
The Yankees, red sox, twins and Rangers do well in other stats as well. But hey it’s only OBP.
The players that have an OBP over .400 are all excellent players for other reasons too not just how many times they walk. Some of those guys hit 35-40 homers and over .300 but no it’s only OBP.
Your argument has no validity.
NOBODY IS SAYING IT’S ONLY OBP!!! and nobody is saying a home run is the same as a walk. all we’re saying is a single is the same as a walk, because you love batting average so much. what we’re saying is when constructing a lineup, its high OBP on top and high OPS in the middle. all the other useless numbers just come along with it. if you have two guys at the top that are getting on 40% of the time they are GOING have runs. if you have a guy hitting third that has a high OPS they are GOING to drive in runs, they are GOING to hit a lot of home runs. they are GOING to score a lot of runs. that is our argument. you don’t even know what we’re arguing about how can you call it invalid.
if you tell me you got a dude named Joey Votto, he has a 1.000 OPS. I say ok he his hitting third for me. because you know he walks a ton and you know he hits the shit out of the ball so he probably has at least 30 hrs and 100 rbi. why do you need to know the exact numbers? you don’t. all you need to know is that with him in the middle of the lineup you maximize your probability of scoring runs. see the problem is we’re thinking more in terms of TEAM and WINNING and you clowns are thinking about individual useless stats. there’s no I in team guys.
thats all real nice and good about votto, but bayonne knows who the cutoff man is sometimes. so yunno, he knows that. deal with it.
a single is not the same as a walk. You can drive in 2 runs with a single.
Well Martin said only 7 players this year had a OBP over .400. So good luck with finding two guys like that to bat 1 and 2 in your fantasy baseball lineup. Those guys aren’t going anywhere soon.
“if you have a guy hitting third that has a high OPS they are GOING to drive in runs, they are GOING to hit a lot of home runs. they are GOING to score a lot of runs. that is our argument.”
I’m saying the same thing. if you have a player that has a high average, alot of homeruns, doubles,and walks you will score alot of runs. That is my argument.
And I also think alot about the team and winning don’t worry about that.
We can keep going around in circles if you like.
you cant drive in 2 runs with a single if the guys in front of you are a couple frenchy’s because those guys are in the dugout making jokes about their beards. they struck out because they dont think walks are important.
Oh,
You’re right! I went over the chat and I DID say that Jeter was not an OBP guy.
You are right, I was wrong. I know he’s a hall of fame player but I didn’t know his career OPB was that high.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AND I WAS WRONG ABOUT THAT.
Still doesn’t change original argument. OBP is overrated.
Guess i never bothered looking at his OBP – i’m used to looking at important things like AB, R, H, D, T, HR, RBI, AVG, BB, K.
lol, why are his hr’s and RBI important as a 1 or 2 hitter when his only job is to get on base for the big boys? Jeter has even said himself that he could prob hit 25-30 hr’s if he really wanted to but his only job is getting on base for the guys behind him. and that is coming from JETER HIMSELF. for someone who claims to know so much about the game you are blowing my mind.
Well that’s Jeter,
It is MY opinion that OBP is still over-rated these days. That’s it. You’re going off topic. You think Jose Reyes is not gonna say his job is to get on on base? Rod Carew also said he could have adjusted his batting style to hit more HRs.
That’s not what we’re talking about here. What we are debating is the importance of OBP. It IS important, I just don’t think it’s important as you do. It’s importance in my opinion is being blown way out of proprotion
oh my goodness Derek Jeter hit second for the new york Yankees BECAUSE HE GETS ON BASE. the yankees score 900 runs a year BECAUSE THEIR TOP OF THE ORDER GUYS GET ON BASE. how is this going off topic? would Derek Jeter be hitting second for the new york yankees if his OBP was .330. f*** no. if Derek Jeter hit for the SAME average and never walked would he score as many runs? if you say yes you are gone.
the object of baseball is to SCORE MORE RUNS THAN THE OTHER TEAM. the only two useful stats for someone of jeters role is getting on base and scoring runs. thats what it all comes down to. it doesn’t matter how the hell you got on base.
Getting OB is only unimportant if you prefer the solo home run to the 2 or three run homer. Getting OB is only unimportant if you prefer your best hitters to get 4 AB’s instead of 5. Getting OB is only unimportant if you prefer to be finished with baseball at the end of September. Team OB% is one of the biggest reasons teams make it to October. Sure SF can overcome a low OB by turning the roster over and because of their 4 big time starters and a good closer but most teams don’t have that. Even better look at the worst teams in baseball and see where they’re OB% stands. The evidence is obvious. Stick your head in the sand if you want. I’m not saying it’s everything but it is a lot, and a lot more than BA and where do you think RBI’s come from? Only from hits?
jeter is a new-fangled calculator carrying saberhead. cant be trusted. no intangibles for captain america.
mule headed I believe would be the correct word or words.
BMF (I like that better than Bayonne by the way because I like sayin “Bad Muth…shut your mouth!”)
If that’s what you meant, I’m cool with that. I didn’t really read much I just saw some sort of debate about whether Jeter was an OBP guy or not.
If you’re clearly saying you believe Jeter was an OBP hitter then I’m not sure what the fuss is about?
Umm I don’t understand why this particular posts had this many comments, but thanks all the same. Thanks always for your support.
Whether we agree with you or not, you always take a firm stand on everything and hold your ground no matter how outlandish we think it is. People respect that. You have a solid site.