I have a feeling that I would really enjoy having a philosophical conversation about life with Jerry Manuel. A conversation about baseball strategy? Not so much. Jerry says and does a lot of incomprehensible things when it comes to running a baseball team and last night’s game against the Marlins took the cake. While I certainly appreciate the way J-Man has this team fighting until the last out in every game, I have zero confidence that Jerry’s in-game decisions will ever steal games for the Mets and, in fact, his poor strategy and decision-making (especially his use of the bullpen) will lose us some and could cost a playoff spot.
Although none of the following poor decisions directly led to last night’s loss, they could have prevented a victory and were out and out bad moves, regardless of the outcome.
1. Starting Fernando Tatis over Ike Davis: Okay, so this may be a bit picky. I understand the idea of trying to get everyone on the team at-bats. But why would you choose to rest Davis on a day when a soft-tossing lefty is throwing, the day after a loss and when you know that Tatis is probably history when Carlos Beltran comes back. And excuse me, but if you play Tatis, why would you bat him in front of Frenchy?
2. Pitching K-Rod in the 8th inning in a road game when you’re down by two runs: Alright, I’ve had enough of this catering to K-Rod and jumping through hoops to get him into games. I don’t care who it is and how long he hasn’t been in a game. You do not bring in your closer in the 8th inning of a road game you are losing 6-4, which is tantamount to admitting you think you’re going to lose and you may not be able to get him in for the 9th. Absolutely ludicrous. Your closer sits on his butt in the pen until you tie the game or take the lead and he can shut down the opposition and ensure the win.
3. Not pinch-running for Rod Barajas in the 9th: You’re down 6-4 and one of the slowest runners on the team gets a leadoff single. You have Alex Cora on the bench to run but instead of getting him in immediately so the bases aren’t clogged, you wait until Chris Carter–a faster runner than Barajas–hits a triple that is only a double because Barajas was the guy running on the play. Not to mention the fact that there were two other catchers on the bench so it’s not like you have to save Barajas. Did someone say “asleep at the switch?”
4. Pinch-hitting Josh Thole for Ruben Tejada: Yes, I know Thole got the hit to tie the game, but does he really have that much more power and contact ability in that spot–coming cold off the bench–than Tejada does, especially with the infield in? The issue here is that when you have already started emptying your bench and the game may go into extra innings, why use another player when it’s not that much of an advantage.
5. Pitching Pedro Feliciano in the 9th of a tie game: Oh, I get it. He’s now the 8th inning guy so since K-Rod pitched the 8th, they had to flip flop, even though there were all righthanded hitters coming up for the Marlins and Igarashi was available and perhaps if you take the lead in the 10th you can have Pedro as the closer. When is Jerry and everyone else who overrates Feliciano going to get it into their heads that Feliciano cannot get out righties consistently. And even when he does get a couple–like the first two last night–it’s only a matter of time until they get to him.
6. Not walking Uggla to pitch to Ross: Yeah, yeah, I know all about Uggla having more holes in his swing than Ross, but you have to set up a force play in that spot. After Cantu hit the double (on a third straight outside fastball, by the way, great pitch calling there), Uggla hit a ball up the middle. Suppose he had hit a ball in the hole that was playable? Well, you may not have a play at any base. Suppose with first and second, Ross hits the same ball in the hole that Reyes or Cora can field? They have a much better chance of getting a force out throwing to the nearest base.
Nice job, Jerry. Somehow I think that if Bobby V was managing that game, they’d still be playing.
Oh, Boy!
I am pretty much with you TT. Please, somebody explain K-Rod in the 8th!!!
Not so sure the base paths and P-hitting moves were so important to me, but why the heck Davis didn’t start last night. I mean, the back of Fernando’s jersey may as well read “Washed Up.” I like the guy, but I don’t think he gives us the chance to win.
I realize it’s just another loss to the Marlins, but why do we have to suck when we face this lousy team. Ugh!
Last night’s loss really put me in a bad mood, which followed my third inning temper tantrum. Yuck.
I have been saying for the past 3 years that Feliciano should NEVER face a righty, unless he is sandwiched between 2 lefties. I don’t care what Pedro says about wanting to pitch to righties. You are our lefty specialist (and one of the best in the game). IF you have to come in to face 1 batter, and after 1 pitch you get him out, then you are done. I don’t and won’t criticize Manuel for his decisions on who and when to pinch hit/run. But what I have ALWAYS criticized him about is his handling of the pitching. But I still wonder if it’s Jerry’s fault, or if it’s Warthens fault for maybe feeding wrong info to Jerry. Granted it is ultimately Jerry’s choice, but I am sure a lot of the pitching decisions have come from Warthen.
I’ve never been a huge Jerry as a manager fan either but I think if the Mets do make it to the post-season it would likely mean they acquired another strong starter and maybe an additional arm in the pen to give Jerry some better options. You gotta remember he really only has 2 releivers he can trust right now… that’s tough for any manager.
Your point on Tatis over Ike, I have to cancel out. At some point you have to get your bench guys some playing time. Batting him in front of Frenchy is a non issue also to me. Francoeur is not some all-star hitter who needs to be given the nod over others at the bottom of the order. I mean he was 1 for 3 with a run scored, it’s not like Tatis had an 0fer, granted his hit was a gift.
The issue you didn’t bring up in regards to this move was that Ike was 4 for 6 against Robertson. So perhaps that’s the best reason why not to sit Ike yesterday and maybe sit him today v. Volstad if you really wanted to get Tatis a day in this series.
I disagree with your 2nd point because K-Rod is his most trusted reliever. Closers should have more of a role than to just get a save. If K-Rod doesn’t pitch that inning 1-2-3, then perhaps the Mets don’t have the window to come back. He gambled, it kind of paid off in that his team then had a chance to win the game… but the real problem is his lack of options in the bullpen, not who he picks.
#3 You have no idea if Blanco was available to come in if the game had been tied. He may have been, I don’t know but don’t forget about these guys’ age. But it’s a fair point, just not one to flip out about. I think if its a playoff game, he makes the PR move.
#4 I gotta claim conspiracy here actually. I think Thole’s stock jumped a little bit because of this move and I think that may have been the reason for the move. I don’t know, but to say he’s less proven than Tejada is silly. You’re pinch hitting a minor leaguer for a minor leaguer… it worked.
Some Mets fans GOTTA get over Bobby Valentine though. I mean it’s like comparing every girlfriend you have to the one you had 10 years ago. For better or worse Jerry Manuel is the manager for 2010, and to compare him to a manager from 10 years ago is ridiculous.
I think at times you take gambles in the regular season, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You manage the playoffs totally different because by the time October roles around you have more data in front of you about whether Tejada can come up big in that spot, or whether you have another bullpen arm to throw in the 8th etc.
I think it’s June 30th and to worry about how Jerry will manage Game 1 of the playoffs is way way too far ahead.
Jerry vs. LaRussa. Jerry vs. Torre. Jerry vs. Bobby Cox. Jerry vs. Bud Black. Gee, let’s see. Who am I going with in those matchups?
Jerry already out-managed LaRussa this year.
Yeah, right. I’m sure that is a pattern.;)
Well Stephen, you make some very sound points that are hard to argue. At the begining of the season I was not very fond of Jerry Manuel, but as the team has succeeded, I had warmed up to him.
I’ll address each of your points to what I think Jerry might have been thinking.
1) Tatis for Ike – Maybe Jerry felt Ike needed a day off, Maybe Tatis had relatives at the game and Jerry was doing him a favor by giving him the start. As far as logistical reasons, I can’t think of any reason why you would start Tatis over Ike regardless if there is a Lefty or Righty on the mound. Ike is better all around, fielding, hitting, hands down Ike should get the start and there is no “platooning” situation at 1st.
2) Pitching K-Rod in the 8th. I think that you may have nailed it on the head. Putting myself in Jerry’s shoes, this is what I come up with. Ok, I have already used Dessen and Parnell; I can’t trust Igorashi after the previous nights performance, Nieve is my long man, so basically I have K-Rod and Feliciano to work with. I am already short one man in the bullpen, so I am going to play for the win — Strike that, I don’t have a clue what he was thinking, it makes no sense other than to get K-Rod some work, just like you said.
3) Agreed, he should have pinch run for Barajas, but I’m guessing Jerry probably did not want to pull the trigger on one of his catchers until something serious developed, and by the time Chris Carter hit that would be triple it was to late. The only reason Cora runs for Carter is because Jerry uses Thole to pinch hit for Tejada so he can do a double switch. But I agree that despite everything worked out for the Mets regardless of the move not being made at the right time, that Jerry should have pinch run for Barajas.
4) Agreed, heck I would have used Thole to pinch run for Barajas and let Tejada swing.
5) Well unfortunately Jerry’s hand here were tied. Igorashi struggled on Monday, and bascially Jerry painted himself into a corner by using K-Rod in the 8th. In my opinion of the options he was left with, I would have used Pedro as well.
6) Agreed, big mistake not putting the force play into effect. Granted you only needed 1 out, but you don’t pitch to Uggla. I wouldn’t even be against walking Uggla and Ross to pitch to Paulino who was 0-4 yesterday.
It’s funny – my friends and I call Jerry Manuel’s strategies “First guessing” (instead of “second guessing”) – meaning: if he has an idea, do the exact opposite and it should work out. Last night I thought I was drinking too much, wondering why KRod was in during the 8th, in a close game. I thought even Jerry Manuel couldn’t get that one wrong. Turns out I was the one who was wrong. My friend and I still have it out for him for suggesting to Willie to have Cliff Floyd swing away in Game 7 of the NLCS.
I don’t have a problem with Tatis playing for Ike, he’s a rookie and will need a day here and there, plus Tatis needs the ABs. I know everyone screams, but they also forget, or fail to conceed that as a pinch hitter (pinch hitter only) he was hitting over .400 for a long time, but hasn’t had many opportunities to pinch hit the last few weeks.
I also think that after any loss there will be a laundry list of woulda, coulda, shouda………..this team was in the cellar and now they are scratching and clawing a smidge out of 1st, we have to give some credit where it’s due please.
Also, enough with the Bobby V………..when he left town I don’t remember people being all that upset. I think we have a selective memory sometimes.
Well, you’re right on the one hand, Kay. But every team loses because of mistakes–mostly–or shortcomings. Last night’s loss is no more on JMan than it is on Wright (getting thrown out twice) or Barajas, or whoever, but part of the fun of being a part of fandom is to speculate the moves and executions that would have enabled your team to win.
Battling is great, but I want the Mets to win as often as humanly possible, and to be a great baseball team. When they don’t win, I am angry, frustrated, and I want to analyze and suggest how they woulda or coulda but didnta!
True enough – but over the years as a fan, I thought there were far more games that I would partcipate in the woulda coulda shoulda didna then last nights, but carry on. It’s all good.
Generally agree with everything said, but what do all these bench coaches do. They have a pitching coach, bullpen coach, and batting coach, but the one that really gets me is “the bench coach”. So the manager has all these coaches, does he get their advice, or do they just do whatever they do. If I was a manager and had all these coaches, do you think just maybe I would ask one of them “hey I’m thinking about pinch running so and so, what do you think?” I never remember Gil Hodges having all these coaches, or Casey Stengel or Leo Durocher. First of all those cheapskate owners wouldn’t pay for extra coaches to sit in a dugout all game and spit tobacco juice all over and managers in the old game really didn’t need any advice. I just don’t get it-maybe someone can clue me in. Thanks.
Nice point, Lou. I was thinking the same thing. Obviously Jerry isn’t listening to his bench coaches because you couldn’t have two guys this poor on strategy in the same dugout.
[...] MetsMerized – Stephen Hanks doesn’t trust Jerry Manuel in a pennant race. [...]
With all due respect, I completely disagree with this entire argument.
1) Tatis HAS to play, why not against a pitcher like Robinson? Let him try to get a couple hits. I feel that you are undervaluing having a confident opinch hitter against lefties. Because right now, we don’t have one. ANd this Beltran talk, you can’t rely on a guy who hasnt played this year to remain healthy. If Beltran hits a snag, Tatis becomes EXTREMELY valuable to the mets.
2) Jerry sees the lower half of his lineup (who’ve only scored 3 all night) coming up and an oppurtunity to keep Frankis sharp. You don’t care how long it’s been since he’s pitched in a game? Well then I hope you won’t be let down when K-rod gets stuck in the ninth. If he needs work, he needs work — that’s who he is. When he set the record with the Angels, think how much he got to pitch.
3) When Rod got his single, Kerry had Cora Carter Thole and Blanco left to use. Obviously he wont use a catcher (WASTE) and Carter was up to PH. So you suggest Cora. Barajas scoring does nothing. As long as he can move base to base and not be Bengie-Molina slow, his speed really doesnt matter. It’s Carter’s run that mattered. Rightfully, Jerry saved his runner for the run that he needed. You don’t use speed to get the 5th run, you save it for the close play at home for the 6th. ABSOLUTELY the correct call.
4) The pitcher was right-handed. It’s a simple use of a left-handed hitter to make the pitcher work for the out. Tejada’s a rookie too, and younger, in fact.
5) Igarashi?? Seriously? Feliciano has gotten us out of big spots all year and other than Frankie he’s our best PROVEN reliever. I’ll bet any Met would agree.
6) Feliciano made a mistake (which doesn’t happen often, so I’m not destroying my point in 5) and threw him a VERY hittable pitch. Manuel didn’t want to throw to Uggla. Warthen even went out to the mound to tell him to throw around Uggla. The plan was to allow the shaky eye of Uggla get himself out. Feliciano messed up and it happens. Hardly Manuel’s fault.
I wish we’d all quit messing with Jerry. He’s not the best, but he’s definitely not a moron. He managed a fine game, GETTING US BACK TO A TIED GAME, but in the end we just didnt win.
ALl respect to you Terrific Tom, I usually agree with all you say
CAW, against my better judgment, I’m going to debate some of your points. So here goes.
1. Why does Tatis HAVE to start a game? Even as early in the season as it may be every game is valuable and I don’t want to weaken the team in any way for any game. Look, if Ike was totally gassed and desperately needed an off-day, I could see giving him a break. But even though I totally get the concept of keeping your bench players fresh, Tatis is soooo bad at this point and so gone when Beltran comes back that it’s a non-issue.
2. I don’t even understand your argument there. “If he needs work, he needs work, that’s who he is?” You know what, this guy is a veteran. If he can’t get his work in on the mound in the bullpen, then he’s doing something wrong. As it turned out, he ended up closing last night. Would one extra day not pitching really have screwed him up. I’m sorry, you don’t bring in your closer in the 8th inning when you’re losing by two on the road, especially when the rest of your bullpen isn’t that reliable. Which leads to point number
5. Suppose Feliciano hadn’t given up a run in the 9th or even the 10th but the game was still tied. Igarashi would have had to pitch anyway. The point is that when you’re on the road and in a tie game, you only use your best relievers late when you’re desperate to get out of a jam and keep the game going. Sending Feliciano out in the ninth to face a slew of righties was a recipe for a loss.
3. I love this “Barajas’ run didn’t mean anything” argument. You don’t use speed to get the 5th run, you save it for the close play at the home for the 6th? What if the close play at home IS the fifth run? What if Carter had hit a ground ball in the hole and the Marlins were able to get a force at second because Barajas was too slow to make it where with Cora they wouldn’t have had a play. If you know you’re going to use a pinch runner somewhere in that inning, you use it to get your slowest runner off the bases as soon as possible.
4. The pitcher was right-handed so that’s why Thole had to bad for Tejada. I guess we shouldn’t play Ruben against righties at all then. I can understand wanting to replace a lefty bat against a tough lefty pitcher, but pinch-hitting a righty just because there is a righty on the mound is overdone.
6. You don’t want to throw to Uggla? Then you walk him. I’m sick of this “pitch around” nonsense. If you’re going to make your pitcher throw the ball near the plate, there’s always a chance of a mistake. I don’t think we’d ever confuse Feliciano with a pinpoint control guy. You walk Uggla there and take your chances with Ross and a possible force play at second and third.
I can agree with some of your points and I understand the criticism, but the point of Barajas being pinch run for I can’t get past. Thre would never be a close play at the plate in the 9th innning for a run that doesn’t tie the game. Chip Hale would never send a runner — even Reyes — if he thought it would be close because it’s rising the game for nothing. And I still agree with Tatis starting. Ike struggles with offspeed and lefties so it seemed like an o.k. thing to me. Either way, the mets made it alright winning last night so hopefully they can get back on a winning streak and make July look just like June. The main point of my argument was that I have confidence in Jerry, and I wish more people would. Mets fans are so negative and i hate that for us.