30
2010
Pitching K-Rod In The Eighth Was Fine With Me
An article by 
You win some and you lose some, and then there’s games like last night.
When Hanley Ramirez launched that grand slam to put the Marlins ahead 4-3, I swear I had a vision of it seconds before it played out on my TV screen. It just seems that whenever the opposition loads the bases against us, all too frequently the worst happens. And so it did. Obviously the Dan Uggla two-run shot that followed two batters later, seemed like the back-breaker and put the Fish up 6-3.
But the Mets battled…. It’s one of the things I love most about the team this season…
Let me sink my teeth into the crux of this post…
I thought Manuel’s decision to bring in closer Frankie Rodriguez to pitch the eighth inning was the right call and I don’t understand why some are calling him out for it?
It’s not like the Mets had a setup man they could have called in anyway… It’s freaking July and we still don’t even know who our setup man even is…
Roles, schmoles, K-Rod is our stopper in the bullpen and we absolutely needed him… We had to make sure that the Fish were held at bay…
PLUS… With the Marlins up by two runs already… There was no guarantee that there would even be a bottom of the ninth…
So why not go with your best bullpen option and hope you could somehow tie the game or take the lead in your final turn at-bat?
Guess what? It worked…
Rodriguez retired the side in order, and in the top of the ninth Chris Carter pinch hit for K-Rod, belted a double, and the Mets went on to tie the game, sending it into the bottom of the ninth.
Perfect!
What would happen after that however, was anything but perfect…
Pedro Feliciano blew the game after coming in to face a tough contingent of right-handed bats, game over.
Should Manuel, have walked Dan Uggla? Yeah probably… But whatever… that’s a discussion for another post.
The bottom line is that pitching K-Rod in the eighth inning was the right call.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
Went to my first Mets game, a Mayors Trophy game at Shea, in '73. We beat the Yankees 8-4 and I was hooked. I marched in two Banner Day parades, and before the Grand Slam single, there was the "Hendu Can Do" grand slam - I was there. I've collected Mets memorabilia all my life and started Mets Merized Online to feed my addiction.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nationals | 26 | 18 | .591 | - |
| Braves | 26 | 20 | .565 | 1.0 |
| Mets | 24 | 21 | .533 | 2.5 |
| Marlins | 24 | 21 | .533 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 23 | 23 | .500 | 4.0 |
Last updated: 05/25/2012
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I don’t know Joe D…All I can think of is that when I looked up and saw Krod pitching inthe 8th, I thought someone spiked my beer with a roofie because I couldn’t believe Manuel had given up on the team/game. I thought MAYBE he was trying for the ever elusive six out save. But come on. You are letting him off the hook for what could have been the easiest move for him.
I don’t like this idea of having to use K-Rod simply to get some work. You use your pitchers when you need them, if K-Rod always needs to have work (and it always seems that way) then throw a lot more in the bullpen and have somebody stand at the plate. We can’t keeping changing the way the game is played just because he says he needs to work, that’s what happened the other day to R.A. DIckey and he lost a complete game because of it. He has to somehow learn to cope with pitching ONLY when we need him
Off topic…Joe what happened to the chatroom? All I’m seeing is a big white box.
This had nothing to do with pitching him just to get work. This had everything to do with a high leverage bullpen situation and using your best reliever in that situation. I wish more managers would realize that sometimes the most important inning isn’t always the ninth and use his bullpen accordingly. Bravo, Jerry.
yeah see I agree. He needed 3 outs, not a specialist or anything like that. So he went to his best guy. I don’t mind it, especially when his best pitcher hasn’t thrown in a few days
Exactly!
You think he’s the only closer in MLB who has to come into games when he’s not needed just because he needs to pitch?
I know for certain Mariano has come in when he didn’t need to, but hadn’t pitched in a few days and they wanted to give him work. It happens
Jeesep
I think it’s time to do a post on clutch pitching.
Last nights loss is on Jerry. It was jerryball at it’s finest. He gave up on his team. It just goes to show that in the end with Manuel managing this team is slightly above .500 team.
How did he give up? Explain to me what he did that threw the game away? I think just the opposite. If he had given up, he would have thrown whoever out there in the 8th and not pinch hit anyone in the 9th.
That is a very ignorant statement “He gave up on the team”……..
It didn’t work, plain and simple.
Kinda weird how we blame the loss on Jerry and not on the fact we have a long reliever in our starting rotation who got rocked.
It’s a job hazard. If someone had come through and won the game, it would have been a terrific performance by said player, not any credit given to Jerry for his decisions to put the Mets in a position to win (which he did). But they lose, so he’s the goat.
Greg, I disagree with you my friend. I dont think Manuel or any MLB manager just gives up. I dont believe Manuel intentionally plays to .500, I mean that’s ridiculous to me. Why would he? Dont you think he wants the team to win as much as we do? You may disagree with his tactics, but come on, to say he he gives up or is content playing .500 sounds a little over the top.
Despite the obvious common sense theory you provide, nothing about the way Jerry managed last night speaks to his giving up. Jerry haters will always be Jerry haters, just like Wright haters will always be Wright haters.
Thing about that is, those people get by with “Jerry Sucks” and “Wright is unclutch” and all that nonsense without a shred of truth or eveidence to corroborate their claim. Yet they prefer to ignore the myriad of truths and evidence to the contrary because it’s inconvenient to them.
Winnah Winnah chicken dinnah!!!!!
Bang.
haha
Not saying he’s doing it intentionally, he’s just not a good manager and not a very smart baseball guy. Pedro was ok to work the 9th but not the 8th? It wasn’t like they were down by 5 or 6. They were down by a couple of runs, pitchers spot would come up with a rally, he should’ve realized that.
Jerry just isn’t capable of managing a team to the post season. He’s out of his element.
I think his choice was completely intentional. He sent his best pitcher out there in the most crucial situation. There wouldn’t have been a bottom of the ninth had the Marlins put across some runs in that inning.
And you want to talk about walking Uggla? Why? Because it sets up a force for Ross? Is that how far you thought it through? Great. So you’ll walk a guy who was hitting .250 with RISP all year and .238 in his last ten games to pitch to a guy hitting .300 with RISP and .350 in his last ten games. That makes TERRIBLE sense.
We need to stop pretending we all know more than a major league manager. It’s why they do what they do and we do what we do. Those numnbers are fairly remedial and are available to you and I. Can you imagine what kind of numbers and charts they have they we don’t have access to?
I don’t mind getting a reliever work and I don’t want to sound like I’m second guessing but at the time I honestly did feel that it was too close a game to just simply get K-Rod some work. I thought it was still a legitimate game being only 2 runs down and thought it was an odd time to bring K-Rod in at that time. Be that as it may Feliciano is a guy you can normally trust and I thought walking Uggla at the time would have been a good idea also. What can you do? Game is over.
As for Wright, the only thing I’m gonna say now is yes he’s hitting, yes I’m happy as long at the TEAM keeps winning and I don’t root for the guy to make outs, of course not. Joe D and I had this discussion awhile ago and talked about how Wright WAS good at getting hits in pressure situations during the season in his early years. Then the post season pressure started to get to him. I remember distinctly giving him a pass on it in 2006 post season because it was his first time. Then I (and others) noticed him succumbing to late season pressure situations in 07 and 08, moreso in 08. Then came the disaster that was 2009 in which he cannot be blamed at all. But even starting last year he was starting to succumb to pressure ABs even during the season and that was something that never used to happen and even though he’s hitting now he has shown that he still gets nervous and tightens up in big spots. All i can say is time will tell. Will he get a decisive hit with the game on the line? (which is something other players don’t seem having a problem doing) we will see.
But for a few people to come on here saying there is no such thing as clutch? That there is no difference in getting a run scoring hit in the 2nd inning as opposed to coming up with the 2nd and 3rd and 2 outs in a tie game, or how about with the season on the line?
I have nothing to say to those people. Those types of situations don’t just occur in sports, they occur in LIFE.
What was Wright succumbing to exactly? Wright put up Hall of Fame worthy numbers in the Septembers of ’07 and ’08. Was that Cubs at-bat big? Absolutely. But there were ten other huge at bats in which he came through that week and everybody seems to forget those.
This is why I’ve said I don’t subscribe to clutch hitting. Do players rise above and make big plays late in games? Absolutely. But I’ve yet to see somebody tell me what exactly “clutch” is in terms of skill. Which has always lead me to believe it’s an opinion based adjective. It’s not a skill, it’s what you remember.
I mean hell, Alex who is more of a DW hater than you Bayonne proved it yesterday. He said Wright was unclutch in the 06 playoffs which began his theory on Wright being unclutch. Yet when I mentioned he hit .333 in LDS 06, Alex poopoo’d those numbers to say he got 3 hits in a 9-5 game 3… which was easily disproven by the fact Wright had a HUGE Game 1, and had a very clutch AB in Game 5 of the LCS.
Yet those who say he’s unclutch or that clutch is a skill or whatever, don’t focus on that. They focus on him striking out, as if every MLB player comes through in the “clutch” every time.
I’ve never come to work with 2 outs and runners in scoring position.
Okay, not meaning to belabor a point of disagreement, and I do like the way you present your argument, Joe, but…
The end result is that we loss the game, and we did not have the benefit of a bona fide closer in a real closer role. By Joe’s logic, and by the logic implied by some others, why then was K-Rod only used for the eighth? SUrely, he had what it took to go one more, no?
To my mind, management is even more bone-headed for not giving the Mets the chance to preserve the tie, something way more akin to what a closer will be called on other than preserving a lead–NOT pitching when you are losing.
The counterfactual here is that no one will know how Feliciano would have pitched the eighth, though he certainly would not have faced the pressure that he did in the ninth. Incidentally, in April many presumed Feliciano was certainly among the two guys who had earned the setup role, right? I don’t think he’s any “natural” setup guy, but he is even less of a preserve-the-tie-for-the-bottom-of-the-ninth guy
So you bring him in for the ninth to face the pressure closers are used to and thrive on w/o a margin for error/allowing hits!!!
In this sense, Joe, your rationale doesn’t satisfy me.
Do I think this is a horrible or terrible decision? Of course not. Simply, it wasn’t a good decision, and you can bet yer bippy it won’t re-occur.
I agree with everything you said except K-Rod going for 2 innings. If we had let him pitch in the ninth, then it would have negated Chris Carter pinch hitting a key double in K-Rod’s spot in the top of the inning.
Great point, Maria. K-Rod couldn’t have pitched the 9th, anyway. I’m also thinking that if someone else had pitched the 8th and let four runs in, this board would be screaming for Jerry’s head not to have brought K-Rod in to stop the bleeding and give the team a chance in the 9th.
I agree with Joe, the biggest spot in the game was the bottom of the 8th, and Jerry used his best reliever in the biggest spot.
Umm, a tie game on the road is not a closer’s role. If he hadn’t pitched the 8th, and the Mets had tied the game anyway in the top of the 9th, he still would not have pitched the bottom of the 9th on the road.
Also, he was only used for the 8th because he was pinch-hit for by Carter, whose double put two runs in scoring position. At that time, it was the last chance to put two runs on the board, and you could not possibly send Krod up to bat in that situation, so he had to be hit for.
Good point about not bringing K-Rod out for Round 2; I forgot about that.
Okay, but Carter could have pinch hit for anybody, any pitcher, no?
If it’s not the closer’s role to pitch in the ninth of a tie game on the road (agreed), how in the name of Jumpin Josephat is it the closer’s role to pitch in the eighth in a losing cause on the road?
There’s too much emphasis on “roles” for the bullpen and I, for one, was glad to see Jerry blur those lines last night. The biggest inning in the game pitching-wise for the Mets was the bottom of the 8th. They needed to hold the Marlins where they were to give their offense a chance to get them back in the game. In the biggest spot, you go to your best pitcher.
I could accept your argument if it was the coaching staff’s rationale, but clearly it wasn’t.
Jman was bound and determined to use K-Rod in the eighth no matter what. There is no evidence to suggest that the coaching staff considered this an all-important spot. You say this now, b/c it worked out that way; not at all b/c K-Rod was earmarked for this specific role with an eye toward tying it up or winning it in the ninth.
Sorry, it just doesn’t wash.
As for an “overemphasis” on roles, I completely disagree, save for real emergencies. An organized BP w/ specifically defined roles (accommodating for some professional flexibility) has been a part of the game for most MLB staffs for quite a while now. We may not like it, or like to think these amazing athletes must be so restricted, but this is part of any teams strategy–pinpointedly accurate roles.
Okay, I’ll let it go now.
K-Rod told Jman he needed the work. There is usually a ‘tomorrow’ that figures into the mix too. In retrospect, though not initially, I think Jman did the right thing.
Good post. The main point is the lack of a go-to set up man. With out this position you are either depending way too much on your starters or your closer.
I found Metsmerizedonline through Metszilla.com and have enjoyed all the writers articles.. I also like the chat widget. Great idea!
Joe, I love ya, but I have to disagree with you on this one. You know what, if you’re going to bring K-Rod in for the 8th in a game like this than you should commit to also having him pitch the 9th. Oh yeah, but you couldn’t because they rallied and his at-bat came up. If you’re going to pitch Feliciano in the 9th if you tie or take the lead, then why can’t he pitch the 8th under the same premise? Because Jerry couldn’t risk K-Rod not pitching at all last night? What’s up with that? So he sits one more day, big deal? K-Rod should not have been in that game unless they went ahead in the ninth or in extra innings or the game went long and the team was desperate. I’m not big on “bullpen roles” either. I think managers should and could be more flexible with who they use and when, but this one was hard to justify.
Besides, the rest did him good cuz he was strong last night
On the contrary, it was very easy to justify. Biggest spot, go to your best pitcher.
jessep,
why u talk about me when im not around?? miss me much??
second of all, yes i admit i was wrong, i saw it was game 1 as u said, but then i shut u up by proving that after that game 1 he was nowhere to be found, going 6-33, with 1 hr, 2 dbls, and 3 rbis, and alsi 8 k’s, he folded as the game went along, they stop pitching to delgado who was on fire to get david out, oh, and game 5 of the nlcs, we LOST!!!! what clutch hit u talking about??
game 5 he had a double to move delgado to 3rd, what else did he do on game 5 that was soo clutch??? go aheadtell me jesse p???
Unclutch: Can you just tell me what is clutch and what isn’t? So far nobody has told me what is clutch… and it seems no matter what a guy does, all you harp on is the negative. Kinda like ARod. Is he clutch now because of 2009 or still unclutch? What makes a guy clutch or not?
To me in the 8th inning of an LCS Game 5 on the road down 4-2, when you double with 1 out and a runner on — if there’s such thing as a clutch at bat, how is that not a big clutch AB?
If Green or Valentin send a ball up the middle, the Mets tie Game 5.
So by you poopoo’ing that AB, that tells me you think the only clutch AB’s are ones that win or tie a game. How often do they need to succeed in order to be “clutch” to you?
All questions that have never been answered
wait what?? his doublw was in the 5th inning!!!!!!!!@!
Unclutch: Before you type about something you “remember” maybe it’s wise to go double check the facts?
http://espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=261017124
In case you’re too tired looking up the definition of clutch hitting
New York – Top of 8th SCORE
Josh Kinney pitching for St. Louis NYM STL
C Beltran struck out looking. 2 4
C Delgado reached on infield single to second. 2 4
D Wright doubled to deep left, C Delgado to third. 2 4
R Flores relieved J Kinney. 2 4
S Green flied out to center. 2 4
A Wainwright relieved R Flores. 2 4
A Miles at second base. 2 4
J Valentin struck out looking. 2 4
The most amazing thing about that inning is that Delgado reached on an infield single. What happened? Did the infielder break his leg?
I don’t remember 100% what happened but I’d imagine it had something to do with the shift?
Unclutch Alex: So a double in the 8th inning down 2 runs with a runner on base in LCS Game 5 is not a clutch hit?
Please, just please tell me WHAT a clutch hit is? All you’re doing is proving to me there’s no such thing as a clutch hit because whenever I prove to you he had some clutch AB’s in the post-season, you downplay it’s value.
Plus that’s two times I’ll have you know that you have been 100% wrong on the timing of Wright’s hits in the post-season.
PS – your reply was on an unrelated post so I brought the convo back to where it originated
Alex/Unclutch: Just so I know… was your lack of response to you saying his double in Game 5 was in the 5th inning and me proving it was in the 8th inning yet another example of you not admitting you’re views on David Wright are built on false statements or were you just tired of being wrong so you stayed quiet?