Cliff Lee vs. Yankees… If Lee Wins, Don’t Bother Getting On The Plane Back To Seattle.

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• Sach C. June 29, 2010 at 10:56 pm

  Lee won tonight. Complete game, 4 Runs, 3 Earned.
• baby al June 29, 2010 at 11:28 pm

  So, whats the point you want Lee on the Mets perhaps? So does every sane thinking Met fan.Pardon me some Met fans want to keep our prospects for next year!25 OF 30 next years have not been enough.Those beauties want some more.The Mets have lost 2 in a row to Florida now. They “battled back “though another catch phrase these fans like to use.Loozers all!Idon’t care about either fighting back only to looze or making this our 26th of 31 non playoff years under Wilpon.You wanna know what bothers me more than that …is it just me that is getting real tired of Florida constantly slapping us around when it means something.
  • METS62FAN June 30, 2010 at 12:02 pm

    Baby, I’m tired of hearing the naysayers complaining he’s supposedly a “rental” why do they neglect to remember the last such “rental” of a player who’d loudly proclaimed the impending free agency opportunity as his first & best chance at getting to decide his own fate & “I’m not talking contrasct extensions with anyone” as most conveniently forget, that last rental guy’s name was PIAZZA, certainly converting him to a longterm lease was pricey; but certainly worthwhile. I’m one who believes Lee culd easily be our key to the “BEST RECORD IN THE NL THIS SEASON and as such HOMEFIELD ADVANTAGE THROUGHOUT PLAYOFFS, right there is reason enough to go ALL IN on Lee’s acquisition. Give Lee a taste of NY adulation, a ring on his finger, vast pitching friendly Citi & he, I believe, is ours for between 4/60M & 4/76M with a FULL NO TRADE should he want one. 4 years coincides his contract with Santana’s, Pelfrey should also be in the fold at least that long securing the PITCHING,PITCHING,PITCHING rewards no 4TH outfielder or catching suspect could ever hope to provide. Thole was a converted 1B to catching, meaning it isn’t naturally “in his blood”, I’m sure there are other conversions possibly in our system with names no one knows presently just as we’d never ever heard of 1B prospect, Thole. Homegrown talent on the field is a nicety that usually costs years of poor MLB performances ensuring top draft picks over multiple drafts. We’re already seeing home schooled talent nightly @ 1B,2B,SS,3B,CF is catcher necessary? was Barajas & Blanco that difficult to acquire? funny; but most of our best catchers were imported ie Grote,Carter, Stearns,Piazza only one top homegrown prospect comes to mind, Hundley & his fingers are naked!
    Angel certainly did everything in his #4 outfielder job description, now’s the time for his ultimate contribution, get his own CF gig while helping to secure our WS berth(Lee)
    • Jessep June 30, 2010 at 12:18 pm

      Mets62: Piazza was 29 years old and a catcher not a 31 year old lefty ace who has never been treated like an ace. He’s also a commodity that every large market team is looking for in the off-season, including the Yankees. If you’re Cliff Lee how does it make sense to sign an extension when a team like the Yankees could have an opening in their rotation if Andy P retires?

      The other problem with signing Lee if he were to let you is he’d likely want 5 years. After all Lackey got 5 years and Lackey has never won a Cy Young and they are the same age. So you’re talking about a guy who turns 32 this August.
      2011 – 33 2012 – 34 2013 – 35 2014 – 36 2015 – 37

      On year #3 of his deal he’d turn 35. Carpenter & Pettite are the only 35 year old pitchers who you could make a serious case for being worth $18 to 30m this year. There are 9 SP’s in total pitching enough innings to qualify over age 35.

      How many 36-37 yr olds are pitching enough in MLB right now? 4. Pettite, Moyer, Lowe, Wakefield.

      The impending disaster of a guy that old making 18-20 m on your staff could lead to dark days. It may not, but that’s why if you’re the Mets you can’t overpay for this guy with prospects because it’s gonna hurt you enough down the road just by signing him.

      I think you’re nuts if you think Cliff Lee would accept 4 yrs 60m when John Lackey signed 5 yrs for 85 million. Why would Lee do that? They are the same age, and you can’t tell me he’d take a discount to pitch with a “good team” like the Mets… because Lackey went to Boston.

      So Mets62 I ask you… is it worth it to you, to trade some prospects and maybe Pagan if the only way to sign Lee is 5 years and over $85m? If your answer is yes that’s fine… but I don’t think it’s that cut and dry
      • METS62FAN June 30, 2010 at 2:18 pm

        Jess, u bring up some very fine points; but u had a lot of assumptions in there. #1, I doubt Lee will demand what u r afraid he’ll demand as after Philly claimed those were the size of his demands & why they dealt him both Lee & his agent adamantly denied Amarro’s insinuations & claims. How could he possibly turn around & prove them right? Security certainly is a strong motivator for Lee as evidenced by his Philly remarks. I certainly believe that we have the third best record in the league right now & Lee would certainly be more likely to get us to #1 than any

        outfielder playing in 60% of the remaining games could(60% is what u get dividing 3 positions by 4 players with each sitting 2 out of every 5 games when time divided equally, while Pagan’s likely the Best #4 outfielder in MLB, we need a Stud ACE SP much more than a stud #4 outfielder. Angel’s biggest contribution of the year might be in getting us Lee. If we put a ring on Lee’s finger, offer him 4Y with a No Trade, I believe he bites @ 4Y/76M(19M per) guaranteeing Lee & Santana in double hasrness for 4 full yrs along with Pelfrey & Niese as second pairing in an impressive brace of stalions.
        IF EVERYTHING GOES BUST THERE’S 2 DRAFT PICKS AS CONSOLATION FOR LOSING A #4 OUTFIELDER & UNREMARKABLE CATCHING SUSPECT(OTHER THAN MEJIA, TO SOME, DO WE HAVE AN “UNTOUCHABLE GRADE PITCHER IN THE PIPELINE?)I DOUBT IT! At kleast NONE that is envisioned to replace any of those aforementioned stalions I was dreaming about in LEE,PELFREY,SANTANA,NIESE for possibly 4 full years! BTW, THAT’S MORE FUTURE THAN ANGEL, THOLE & ANY MET UNNAMED PITCHING PROSPECT COULD MUSTER!
        btw, u may recall my trepidations suurounding altering Mejia back to SPing his mechanics were NOT suited to start, alter them & u never know the end result until too late! I pray we didn’t screw the pooch on this one.
        • Jessep July 1, 2010 at 11:01 am

          METS62: You say I’m assuming, we’re all assuming. I think me believing that Cliff Lee believes (and rightfully so) that he’s worth more $ on an open market than John Lackey is a better assumption than what you believe he’ll sign for. Don’t forget that Santana signed a 6 year deal worth 137.5m with the Mets. You think Lee believes he’s not worth at least $90/5 when a guy on the Mets who he likely believes he’s better than is making more $/years?

          Philly dealt him because he was their 2nd choice on the open market and they couldn’t get Halladay until the GM situation changed over there. Halladay is who they wanted the entire time.

          I’m not saying I wouldn’t deal Pagan+Thole and whoever. I wouldn’t deal Neise and I wouldn’t deal Tejada right now either. The thing about Pagan is it’s putting all your chips on Beltran being healthy.

          I agree that this team needs a true #1 but I also believe this team doesn’t need to jump into a black hole of spending and having aging players with big contracts. I also believe that if the Mets were to acquire say a Ted Lilly, the price would likely be cheaper and he is a free agent as well and would gain them draft picks if they let him walk.

          There’s just so many what if’s involved, and there’s no real way for us to know what he wants, what seattle wants and what the Mets want. We can assume, and if it’s me I take a lower risk guy like Lilly who is also a proven legitimate SP and I use whatever extra I would’ve spent on Lee to go get a legitimate bullpen arm.

          If they get Lee it’s great but I think it puts them in a position where they have to win now and if they do not, we could see youthful dark days in NY again
    • baby al June 30, 2010 at 8:09 pm

      62, my point was not against Lee as a rental it was lets get on board as Met fans for the big win.Lets back up a Big move instead of crying how we might loose a journey man player like Pagan.If I told you last off season Pagan would be a big part of a Cliff Lee trade you would have told me to lay off the Grant Roberts stogies!That alone proves that trade should be jumped on if it is indeed there.It’s not a knock on Pagan’s play this year it is a comment on it.As far as the Piazza trade that was pushed by the old ownership,thank God,and the pizza man delivered.I was at Shea in 98 when Piazza was booed and a Mark Maguire was cheered, probally by the same fans whould knock a Big move now.
      • METS62FAN July 1, 2010 at 10:27 am

        Al, in today’s Post, Joel Sherman sums it up best, IMHO.
        http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/hardball/up_the_cliff_lee_edition_bz4TWCjJ4K2sd2wlGyGlKM
        GEOFF BAKER, SEATTLE COLUMNIST CITES MARINER SOURCES CLAIMING A PAGAN+THOLE+”PITCHING PROSPECT” WALKS THIS DOG. I’ve checked the current stats of our present MiLB fodder; NONE should be untouchable. I’d give the highest value to Parnell at this time In fact, if Seattle was cncerned over Mejia’s healing, I’d be willing to insure that choice by agreeing to give the a choice of minor league PTBNL should Mejia be seriously injured. I’m that convinced that Lee is not only THE DIFFERENCE MAKER in Postseason berth; but MORE IMPORTANTLY the delta between our present third place in overall NL record & Best in NL record come Playoffs, ensuring us the most favorable HOMEFIELD ADVANTAGE THROUGHOUT LEAGUE PLAYOFFS, we ALL know the advantage CITI brings to us. In addition, I believe the combination of a lucrative 4Y deal+Ring+Citi friendliness+our lockerroom + a FULL NO-TRADE would secure Lee for us going into the next 4Y with Santana,Lee,Pelfrey,Niese providing that PITCHING,PITCHING,PITCHING,PITCHING insurmountable EDGE!
        • Bob L July 1, 2010 at 11:12 am

          i sense we’ll get Lee. While i urge we pull the trigger on an ACE, Lee though maybe the ‘best’ one is just a rental. i highly doubt we’d sign him to a 4 yr deal in the off-season. Hence, it matters ‘who’ we trade to get him…more than it does for a deal for, say, Haren.
          i have no problem with dealing Mejia, Thole, or Parnell for Lee, or would the Mariners want Francouer(?), but i would not want to deal Pagan nor give too many other prospects for Lee. We need Pagan, because we do not know how well Beltran will perform or his sustainability if/when he returns.
          • Jessep July 1, 2010 at 11:16 am

            Bob L:

            Why would Seattle want Frenchy? He’s a RF, he can’t play CF and you’re wasting his arm if you put him in LF.

            If you’re Seattle you’re not moving Ichiro out of RF because you got the .260 hitting Jeff Francoeur.

            They have FGutz who could play CF or LF so if they wanted a 3rd OF it’s gotta be a guy like Pagan who could play in LF or CF depending on how well FGutz is in CF (which I admit I have only seen 1 Mariners game this year)
            • Bob L July 1, 2010 at 11:32 am

              oh Jessep, i was stretching with Francouer, that’s all…looking for a way to get Lee and not give up Pagan. Several blogs out there are citing TX Rangers looking for a way to get Lee for a mega prospect package with M’s providing some $$$$$$ relief. Also, speculation that Phillies want Haren. That would not be good.
              • Bob L July 1, 2010 at 11:53 am

                But looking again, it’s not so dumb. The Mariners need a LF, with Bradley, Langerhans, Saunders not doing much this year…Francouer’s numbers this year about equals Gutierrez and Francouer would be a damn good LF…and he’s still young.
                Mejia, Francouer, Thole for Lee…? Actually, that’s a lot to give up for a rental…but IF a WS ring is the prize, i suppose it’s worth it…but please, not another 4 years in the wilderness…!
                • Jessep July 1, 2010 at 12:09 pm

                  Bob:

                  The problem with Francoeur is while yes he’s young, he is what he is. There’s no upside to him at all. And what he is, is an average hitter at best.

                  Also, the Mariners top prospect is OF Michael Saunders (admitedly struggling a lot right now in MILB) to I’m honestly not too sure about all the hype that they want/need an OF back because you know Ichiro’s good to go for a few years, they like FGut and they have to be banking on Saunders coming up soon.

                  This is why we all know not what we speak of until/unless a deal happens
                  • Bob L July 1, 2010 at 12:21 pm

                    You make good points, Jessep. i agree, we’re just clutching at straws. But a deal does seem imminent…and it’s probably Lee we’re pinpointing…according to the rumors, anyway.
                  • Satish Ram July 1, 2010 at 12:39 pm

                    Jessep, you’re making valid points, but I wanted to correct something.

                    Saunders is in the MLB.
                    He hit 2 hrs last night.
              • METS62FAN July 2, 2010 at 9:50 am

                Bob, sorry; but “NOT GIVE UP PAGAN?” Are u kidding me? why is he so untouchable in your mind? Cliff Lee is easily one of the TOP 5 SP around. Of all those “suspects” incl Angel I’ve not once ever heard any of them valued as a potential TOP ANYTHING @ their respective positions. Do u recall ALL the crying,complaining about the lost “treasures” we relinquished in the Santana & Putz deals? Aside from Gomez have u heard any glowing commentary regarding ANY of them? (Mike Carp can’t even “earn” a roster spot on an underachieving team)Similarly, I don’t even recall who it was we dealt in ’69 for Clendenon, though he certainly wasn’t a longterm acquisition. BTW we relinquished our then TOP PITCHING PROSPECT, Dotel to “rent” Hampton, does anyone regret that even today? Pagan? I’ve loved Angel from the get go with Brooklyn, yet I’ve also seen similar players like Timo,Endy,Gomez leave sans apocalyptic consequences. A Beltran #1, Feliciano, #4 outfield does not seem a horrendous option when acquiring an ACE starter. Did u curse the fates these days that sidlined Angel & featured Jesus?(lol-couldn’t resist)
                Is acquiring Lee without an extension a gamble? most certainly. With the third best W/L record in the league @ the break needing a stud starter is a more reasonable acquisition for making the playoffs than most foresaw in April. It’s not only time for the frontoffice to pledge their souls to making this run for the POST, it’s also time we fans PUT IT ON THE LINE. balking over a contributory level player, is tantamount to “spitting the bit” from my point of view. BTW, this is fan CRUNCH TIME calling for us to BULL OUR NECKS & BELIEVE! SHOW SOME GRIT! We have an opportunity to add a GREAT SP Do u believe? Do u WANT to believe? Do u deserve what it is u claim to want? Why worry about hindering a future you’re too afraid to to progress towards?
                Lee benefits us in:
                STRENGTHENS OUR ROTATION (obviously)
                STRENGTHENS OUR BULLPEN(returns Taka & 5CG to date bodes well for pen rest every 5)
                BULKS UP PLAYOFF PITCHING AS DICKEY & TAKA BOTH ON-CALL IN PEN WHILE LEE,PELF,JOHAN,NIESE ROTATE THROUGH THE NL BREATHLESSLY especially if he delivers, as I suspect is possible, the #1 NL record securing NL playoff HOMEFIELD ADVANTAGE throughout the playoffs.
                U REALLY WANT TO TOSS ALL THAT POTENTIAL FOR THE POTENTIAL OF A 29 YR OLD #4 OUTFIELDER? DO U REALLY WANT TO PUNISH ANGEL BY DENYING HIM A STARTING OUTFIELD SPOT FOR HIS REMAINING CAREER?
        • baby al July 1, 2010 at 4:40 pm

          62, If Sherman’s article comes to pass we will have a very,very,very (as Manuel would say)good shot at the playoffs.This is a trade that must be consumated.
• Sean Kenny June 30, 2010 at 1:26 am

  Josh Thole will, and cannot be the catcher of the future. He has 10 career home runs in 1479 MiLB AB’s.

  When I did a piece on why to draft Yasmani Grandal, I realized that the BEST outlook for Josh Thole was an average fielding Paul LoDuca clone. He’s best suited for a backup catcher role. Thole is a guy who can afford to be parted with. This is probably what is to expect of Josh Thole. Some decent gap power, maybe 5 HR a year and iffy defense. Cliff Lee is worth 12 Josh Thole’s.

  Pagan is very valuable, but Lee may be just as valuable for this season.

  And Mejia and anyone else who’s main selling point is “upside” – should look to the possible trade of Lastings Milledge to the A’s years ago as a sign when sometimes you gotta sell high on some guys. Fernando Martinez was worth more before he played an MLB game then he probably is now.
  • Des June 30, 2010 at 7:35 am

    Lastings Milledge was dumped for a few reasons:

    He presented a lot of moral hazard to the community conscious Mets owners. His tawdry past was salvaged with some good Mets PR but his judgment was terrible and another incident was likely.

    He was a clubhouse disaster and an on-field show off who was too slow to learn how to behave in a big market like New York

    He couldn’t play the outfield without standing with his backside touching the fence. He had no ability to go back on well hit drives.

    He had a real quick bat but there was a likelihood he would never handle sliders and off speed pitches.

    A special commendation should have been presented to Billy Wags for confronting Milledge and his petulant showboat tactics.
    • Lou June 30, 2010 at 8:34 am

      And he was proabably dropped on his head when he was a kid too! Why don’t you just call Bud Selig and get the guy banned from baseball-geez the guy is just trying to make a living, get off his case already!
    • baby al June 30, 2010 at 8:38 pm

      You seem to be worried about Met player behavior as if they were your children.Is behaviorism your field of expertise?
    • baby al July 1, 2010 at 1:34 am

      A perfect example of a big mouth malcontent … the next out Wagner gets in a big spot will be his first.If I remember correctly didn’t Wagner leave a sign by the Milledge locker? I guess ole’ Billy couldn’t find Lastings in the locker room.Another chapter in PROFILES IN COURAGE.lol
      • tlagee July 1, 2010 at 5:28 pm

        Hi Hammy.

        I think Lastings Millage jumped the shark when he high fived fans after hitting a home run DURING a game (and psssst. – it wasn’t even a game winner)
• russell Zanca June 30, 2010 at 1:42 am

  Get Cliff Lee ’cause I’m not sure we’ve seen the last of Taka-Ha-Shi* this season. Or were you all getting excited that OP is rehabbing?

  How many more times will we say, “Well, if not for that grandslam in the third, he pitched pretty well.” Yeah, you see what I mean? So let’s deal some prospects and get CLiff Lee. Hell, throw in Parnell, too. He also looked great early in ’09, but consistent appearances caught up with him as did those who faced him.
  • baby al June 30, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    Teach RZ teach!
• Tommy2cat June 30, 2010 at 5:50 am

  If we go after Cliff Lee, here’s some guiding principles:

  1. We absolutely need Cliff Lee if we are serious about playoff contention for this year.

  2. We can afford to part with Josh Thole, Fernando Martinez, Bobby Parnell and even Mejia, but not all at once for a 1/2 year rental.

  3. I have strong reservations about trading Angel Pagan. I havehad the benefit of meeting and speaking with him and agree with Gary Cohen’s statement last night about Pagan’s inherent sincerity. He always bears down when the game is on the line. He has a stellar attitude. If we are to part with him, the front office should have a multi-year offer on the table that is acceptable to him and his agent when he becomes a FA in the offseason. He probably won’t be a type A FA, so we won’t be cutting our throats to re-sign him.

  4. If we are to part with several of our top prospects, we MUST have a gentlemen’s agreement with Cliff Lee’s agent that establishes the contours of an acceptable multi-year deal. Otherwise, pass on Lee until the offseason and hold onto our prospects.
  • andy June 30, 2010 at 8:01 am

    you gotta think that if he does come over here and we go deep into the playoffs, hes gonna wanna stay and would work with the club to continue that success. seemed like he wanted to do that in philly, but they didnt give him the opportunity…. we can show we are a better organization than them AND he gets to beat up on them himself lol
• andy June 30, 2010 at 5:52 am

  the goal is to win every year correct??? this team doesnt need to “rebuild” or anything like that. we have a winning product on the field and will have one for years to come no matter what.

  GET CLIFF LEE!!!!!!!!! i dont care what Mejia turns into and good luck josh thole. we have a real chance to do great things this year and its gonna start with great pitching. with lee in this rotation, we are almost a lock. no we arent gonna win with just lee, but i have faith in our lineup and the rest of the rotation. Johan hasnt been great but he was so for the better part of the year. you bring in a guy like lee and you make a statement to the entire organization. MANAGEMENT WANTS A NICE NEW BANNER, TROPHY AND RING THIS YEAR!!!!! that tell ur guys to go out there and get it. put the confidence in the staff and do ur best.

  Talk about the future all you want, but Lee gives us a better chance to win now and in this game, thats all that counts. you cant talk about the Rays and their system and their guys but u bring in winners and thats what they do. Rays havent won anything but have young guys. beckett came in and won a ring for the sox. CC and AROD have rings.

  I want to win now and Lee gives us the best chance at doing that.

  LETS GO METS!!!!!!!!!!
• Lou June 30, 2010 at 8:45 am

  Do we have a backup plan if Cliff Lee does not become a Met? Also if Pagan becomes part of the trade I would then approach the Braves and see if Matt Diaz is available. A pretty good defensive outfield with some pop in his bat.
• Scotty doesn't know June 30, 2010 at 10:17 am

  Look, I know a lot of people are very high on Pagan, heck, I even love him and would hate to see him go. Pagan is a great player and I was thrilled when we re-acquired him from the cubs, but…

  1) We really need a Big #2 Starter if we are to have any shot of winning it all this year.

  2) Pagan is currently on a 1 year deal with the Mets so if he is traded and does not sign an extension, the Mets can just simply re-sign him in the offseason, most likely for a lot more than most Mets fans will be willing to pay a 4th outfielder.

  3) The recent struggles of R.A. Dickey and the more glaring recent 2 poor starts for Takahashi enlighten us to the fact that we have been blessed with stellar performances out of these two starters to this point in the season, but they have their flaws and to put all of our play-off hopes in Dickey and Takahashi’s basket for 2010 would be a grave mistake.

  The best scenario for 2010 would be to acquire Lee, and now have either Dickey or Takahashi as that Depth in the rotation everyone seeks.

  Lets face it, the pitching injuries we have sustain this season (excluding Niese’s brief DL stint) have been blessings, but to assume the Mets core rotation as it is presently will hold up through the course of the remaining 1/2 of the season is to optimistic in my view. We need Depth, in fact we have the pieces to provide the depth, what we are missing is the starter.

  To comfort some, Lee is not a complete rental, since the Mets have the same chances of signing him in free agency as anyone else, and if we lose out, we can replace Josh Thole, or whoever with a draft pick we obtain from Lee signing somewhere else. It is not a total loss, if he does not resign. Trade deadline signings are going to cost you something, and in my opinion…

  Cliff Lee > Josh Thole, Angel Pagan, Pitching Prospect Other than Meija
  • baby al July 1, 2010 at 1:05 am

    Lets face the fact that the ollie perez injury is his contract and john maine is not worthy of discussion with his primitive pitching skills!Unless you consider cowardice an injury then maine is injured.
• METS62FAN July 1, 2010 at 12:07 pm

  JESS, I’ve waited 15 min for the fiollowing response from u to post, I’m both out of patience as well as resperctful of your voiced position, so much so I’m pasting it here:
  Author: Jessep
  Comment:
  METS62: You say I’m assuming, we’re all assuming. I think me believing that Cliff Lee believes (and rightfully so) that he’s worth more $ on an open market than John Lackey is a better assumption than what you believe he’ll sign for. Don’t forget that Santana signed a 6 year deal worth 137.5m with the Mets. You think Lee believes he’s not worth at least $90/5 when a guy on the Mets who he likely believes he’s better than is making more $/years?

  Philly dealt him because he was their 2nd choice on the open market and they couldn’t get Halladay until the GM situation changed over there. Halladay is who they wanted the entire time.

  I’m not saying I wouldn’t deal Pagan+Thole and whoever. I wouldn’t deal Neise and I wouldn’t deal Tejada right now either. The thing about Pagan is it’s putting all your chips on Beltran being healthy.

  I agree that this team needs a true #1 but I also believe this team doesn’t need to jump into a black hole of spending and having aging players with big contracts. I also believe that if the Mets were to acquire say a Ted Lilly, the price would likely be cheaper and he is a free agent as well and would gain them draft picks if they let him walk.

  There’s just so many what if’s involved, and there’s no real way for us to know what he wants, what seattle wants and what the Mets want. We can assume, and if it’s me I take a lower risk guy like Lilly who is also a proven legitimate SP and I use whatever extra I would’ve spent on Lee to go get a legitimate bullpen arm.

  If they get Lee it’s great but I think it puts them in a position where they have to win now and if they do not, we could see youthful dark days in NY again

  See all comments on this post here:
  http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/06/cliff-lee-vs-yankees-if-lee-wins-dont-bother-getting-on-the-plane-back-to-seattle.html#comments

  JESS, AT THIS VERY MOMENT WE ARE 1,5 GB IN OUR DIVISION AS WELL AS ONLY 3GB FROM THE BEST RECORD IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE. TED LILY IS NOT CHOPPED LIVER; BUT WOULD BE A CREDIBLE ADDITION; HOWEVER I DO NOT VIEW HIM ANYWHERE NEAR AS STRONG A TOPNOTCH PLAYOFF GUARANTOR AS LEE IS ENVISIONED. NEITHER THE CI=UBS NOR THE MARINERS ARE TEAMS WORTHY OF SUPPORTING THESE ERESPECTIVE PLAYERS THE ONE COMPETING IN THE HEAVIER CONTESTED AMERICANM LEAGUE CERTAINLY SHOULD BE LESS INMPRESSIVE WITH LESS SUPPORT, NOT MORWE SO LIKE LEE HAS BEEN CONSIDERING YTD:
  LILLY IS 3-6 3.12 0CG 1.06WHIP VS, LEE’S 7-3 2,45 5CG 0.92WHIP I VIEW THESE 2 AS AN ORDINARY SECOND BEST TYPICAL NYM CHOICE VERSUS A TOP SHELF GO-FOR-BROKE PLATINUM NYY-BOSOX CALIBER DEAL I POERSONALLY SEE NO GUARANTEED VALUE IN ANY OF THOSE ‘SUSPECTS’ WE’D BE SURRENDERING. A VALID ARGUEMENT CAN BE MADE THAT LEE GETS US HOMEFIELD ADVANTYAHGE THROUGHOUR LEAGUE PLAYOFFS LEADING TO A WS BERTH & AT LEAST EVEN CHANCE @ A WS TITLE. LILLY+MEJIA+THOLE+PAGAN BARELY GETS US A POSTSEASON W/C BERTH. EVEN YOUR BEST CASE ANGEL SCENERIOS LISTS ANGEL AS A SPARE PARTTIME PLAYER(PLATOON IN RF AT BEST) ANGEL WOULDN’T QUALIFY AS A STARTING OUTFIELDER ON MOST OF THE PAST WS SQUADS OVER PAST 5 YRS. WHILE, ANGEL’S BEEN HURT, FELICIANO HAS MADE THE PLAYS & NOT ONCE HAVE I HEARD THE LAMENT, “IF ONLY ANGEL WERE PLAYING…” LET’S NOT CONFUSE ANYTHING HERRE THOLE ISN’T #1 CATCHER MATERIAL SHORT-TERM, PAGAN ISN’T WILLIE MAYS, PERHAPS WILLIE MAYS HAYES LMAO. UP TO ME ALONE I’D EVEN GIVE LEE 5Y/95M(19M PER) & A NO-TRADE TO STAY IN ROTATION WITH SANTANA,PELFREY,NIESE FOR THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE. LET’S NOT BLINK WHEN THE TIME CALLS FOR GUTS & GUMPTION. I CERTAINLY BELIEVE A LIVEABLE CONTRACT CAN GET HAMMERED OUT & COMBINED WITH PUTTING A RING ON HIS FINGER+ A NO TRADE+CIT’S FRIENDLINESS+ A WINNING STRONG ROTATION & PEN ATROUND HIM IN OUR UPBEAT CLUBHOUSE WITH NYC ADULATION SURROUNDING A WS CHAMPION TEAM+ A LEAD CAR POSITION IN TICKERTAPE PARADE IS WORTH GAMBLING ON. DON’T SELL ME A LINCOLN(LILLY) WHILE I’M SHOPPING MERCEDES(LEE) WITH LEE WE’D HAVE THE LUXURY OF SLIDING JOHAN TO #3 UNTIL HE WORKS OUT THE KINKS INCREASING HIS CHANCES @ EUN SUPPORT THUS IMPOROVING HIS PERSONMAL STATS & SELF IMAGE.
  • Jessep July 1, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    Mets62:

    Ted Lilly is 9th in MLB in WHIP which when talking about an “ace” I find to be a very important stat, ESPECIALLY when you’re talking about pitching in Citi Field. Pair that with the fact Lilly plays in a sandbox compared to Citi Field and he’s played in NY before. I’m not saying he’s BETTER than Lee. I am saying he’s likely cheaper, and if you’re asking me who do I want for maybe 15 starts, Lee may be better in 3 of them max… but if getting Lilly cheaper means getting a strong 7/8th inning bullpen guy I think Lilly is a smarter buy.

    It should also be noted in 2009 Lilly’s WHIP was 1.05 (5th in MLB) to Lee’s 1.24 (30th in MLB)

    Lee was excellent in the 09 postseason, I do not deny that. But I wonder if you can deny that pitching in NY is different than pitching in Philadelphia in terms of pressure? Philly’s tough don’t get me wrong… but you never hear about superstars not being able to cut it in Philly.

    Comparing their W-L record. Do you realize in Cliff Lee starts the Mariners average 4.58 runs a game? Wanna know what the Cubs average in Lilly games? Try 2.38 runs. Lilly has given up more than 4 runs twice this year in a game. What would his record look like with 4.5 runs being spotted to him?

    You say you’d give Lee 5 yrs/95m. So then when he’s 35, 36 yrs old you’re expecting him to be unlike almost every single pitcher that age and beat the odds. To me it’s exactly why the Mets didn’t sign Derek Lowe. Lowe clearly is NOT Cliff Lee, but the thought was, will he be worth the money when he’s 35, 36, 37? To me you have to wonder that about Cliff Lee? Especially since the guy really has only had TWO complete seasons where he’s put up true #1 numbers.

    So I’m not saying Lee isn’t a very good option. I am saying he’s not the only one. I’m saying Ted Lilly pitching in the same rotation in Citi Field may be the difference of 1 or 2 games than Cliff Lee, plus if Lilly allows you to acquire a legitimate bullpen arm then how many more wins does that save you over Cliff Lee?
    • METS62FAN July 2, 2010 at 10:41 am

      Jess, while I normally respect your analysis in most circumstances; but to in anyway try ro equivicate between Ted Lilly(34) 11 yr vet & Cliff Lee(32) 8 yr vet makes me doubt your impartiality. considering Lee has more CG this year(5) than Lilly has accumulated throughout his entire 11 yr career(4), certainly would seem to at least neutralize your featuring a bullpen addition among your necessities, I noticed u chose to ignore the sinmple accomplishments regarding CG, best years & overall carrer accomplishments. I wom’t denigrate Lilly; but to any way think he deserves the same consideration as Lee is supercilious at best. While Lilly does have 3 more years of MLB tenure, lets see what he accomplidshed while Lee wasn’t contributing in the Majors. Lilly’s 11 years yielded a career mark of 106-90 4.19 while Lee’s 8 yrs garnered a 97-55 3.86 mark. Let’s do the math shall we? in those 3 extra years Lilly managed to win exactly 9 more games while losing 45 more how? perhaps because Lilly’s 3 best years of ’08(17Ws), ’06
      (15Ws) & ’07(15Ws) were being matched by Lee with ’08(22Ws),’05(18Ws) & both ’04 &’06(14Ws) Could Lilly likely be acquired for less talent? Perhaps. Is there a time tested truth to the long standing evaluation of any marketplace by the tenet “YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR” NO DOUBT! Neither of these pitchers are toiling for a team coming close to expectations, Mariners(33-45), Cubs(34-45). Basicly the cause for being Sellers
      • Jessep July 2, 2010 at 10:50 am

        Mets62: I think more than once I said Lilly is not as good as Lee but if he allows the Mets to also get a late inning bullpen arm I’d rather have Lilly.

        I’d also rather maybe sign Lilly to a 2 yr deal since he’s never been a big $ guy, than sign Lee to a 5 yr deal worth 18-20m a year.

        When it comes to pitchers, especially a guy like Lilly. What he did 5 years ago for Toronto mean nothing to me. I care about his time in the NL and his last 3 years. Tell me his last 3 seasons while playing in Wrigley Field don’t make him a viable option for the Mets rotation?

        Again, my concern with Lee is his cost in terms of prospects and then his cost of a contract. I believe Ted Lilly costs less on both fronts and the difference between W-L is minimal between the two if they were on the Mets. Plus if you get Lilly maybe you have more to spend for a bullpen arm which could be more valuable in the long run.

        Lee’s a great pitcher (3 great years) but if the Mets can get a legitimate arm for cheaper, then I’d go that route. So again I’m not saying Lilly is a better pitcher than Lee. I’m just saying given the circumstances, he may be the better OPTION for the franchise.
• Bob L July 1, 2010 at 12:14 pm

  ’62, Feliciana is a ‘spot’ replacement player, particularly in CF, where he doesn’t have the speed to effectively patrol that spanse over a long period (particularly in CitiField) like Pagan does (and Beltran once did).
  Again, it’s not that Pagan is a world class / hall of famer MLB player or CF’er, it’s that we do not have the luxury of trading Pagan this year because we do not know how Beltran will play if/when he returns.
  • METS62FAN July 2, 2010 at 10:50 am

    Basicly, Bob, u are willing to walk away from attaining a TOP 5 SP out of fear Beltran may be ordinary? If he is, he’d still be comparable, at least, to our competition. If Beltran is @ 75%, face it, Pagan’s NOT PLAYING! @ 75% BELTRAN’S A MORE INTIMIDATING FORCE THAN PAGAN’S BEST GAME EVER! SOME MIGHT SAY EVEN @ 50%. You want to consider fears, negative what ifs? What if Pagan pulls an Endy severely damaging his ability by injury? his track record implies a much more liklihood than Endy’s relativly d-l less history would’ve.
    • Jessep July 2, 2010 at 10:56 am

      Mets62: Here’s where I agree with you. If the Mets say we want Lee, I clearly can do nothing about that. But for somebody to tell me Pagan is untouchable in that deal, I can’t buy into that. Pagan is as good as he’ll ever be, and he’s not Carlos Beltran. If Beltran is 80% I believe he can put up Pagan numbers.
      • METS62FAN July 2, 2010 at 11:18 am

        Jess, welcome into the light, my friend!
• Bob L July 1, 2010 at 1:34 pm

  i want Lee or Haren or Lilly or Oswalt or Carmona, but i wouldn’t trade Pagan or Niese for any of them and definitely not for a rental. Niese is pitching like a damn good #3 and Pagan, in my humble view, is essential this year because of the uncertainty of ‘what’ Carlos Beltran we have IF/when he returns.
  2 1st round picks is a potentially great consolation prize, but a package from us of Mejia, Thole, Parnell, Duda, (or even Francouer to an AL team) might be an attractive piece as a good defensive OF/DH) surpasses the value of 2 ‘unproven’ 1st rounders, again, in my humble view.
  And i’d rather not include Tejada either. Definitely not for a rental. He’s proven valuable in his short stint with us this year and i think that the kid is gonna be an excellent MLB player real soon…hopefully for us….the potential drips from the kid.
• Jessep July 1, 2010 at 12:41 pm

  Satish: Good catch on Saunders I forgot he got playing time cuz of Sweeney going on the DL.
  • Satish Ram July 1, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    Thanks.

    Also, the points on Ted Lilly? Spot on. It’s a great idea and I’d take it because I’ve had a lot of respect for Ted Lilly.

    I still do hope we get Lee. The only person I’m trading Pagan/Mejia/Thole/CaptainKirk…etc for is Lee. I’d do Pagan and Mejia. I don’t get why the Mariners would do it.

    No way i’m trading Niese for anything.

    For Lilly, what do you think would be an approximate cost for him?
    • Jessep July 1, 2010 at 12:57 pm

      Satish: I think the problem with the pitching market for guys like Lee and Lilly are they are both Type A’s… so if the Cubs/Mariners aren’t getting valuable prospects in return, why not just hang on to them and grab the draft picks?

      (I think Lilly is Type A, I know he’s a free agent… not sure on details of his arbitration eligible due to age but I think he’s Type A)

      That’s why I just don’t think the Mariners NEED to deal Lee as much as people say.

      So it honestly really all depends on how much the M’s and Cubs value guys like Flores, FMart, Mejia, Kirk etc. Are they good enough to pass up on 2 1st round picks? That’s what they are trading. Forget about Lee or Lilly. They are dealing 2 1st rounders for what? That’s the question
• METS62FAN July 2, 2010 at 11:36 am

  Jess, I’m confused as to why u believe assuming Lilly’s 6M remaining is less of a financial impediment to adding pen help than assuming Lee’s 4.5M would be? As to cost in prospects, the dominant names mentioned by most “reliable” sources are Pagan,Thole,Mejia, who amongst that contingent is spoken as a future top performer in his chosen position? Mejia? unlikely, at best esp now. None of those 3 are a unique level talent that’s irreplaceable in any given year. These aren’t Kazmir,Ryan,Otis level prospects, barely reach the Leroy Stanton threshold. In my opinion the most promising, Mejia, is basicly this year’s Octavio Dotel.
  • Jessep July 2, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Mets62: I’m speaking more in terms of next year and years after that cost. I believe you could more easily sign Lilly to a modest extension for say 2 years than you could sign Lee to a reasonable deal.
    • METS62FAN July 2, 2010 at 12:05 pm

      Jess, illogically assumed. based upion everything I’ve ever read, Lee was upset Phlly moved him, & if we could get him to the WS also I believe he’d prefer the stability of staying. I believe we won’t get any kind of discount; but he’d stay for a fair mkt based offer of 4 yrs especially COMPARING THE PITCHING ATMOSPHERE OF CITI Vs THAT OF CBP. It’s not like his’s reped by Boras. I prefer not making decisions based upon imagined fears, if I’m wrong those 2 first rounders go a long way towards replaCING A VERY GOOD 4th OUTFIELDER, B/U GRADE CATCHER CONVERTED FROM 1B & A SORE ARMED CONTROL CHALLENGED PITCHER. Sorry; but that’s really the desription that unemotionally applies to Pagan, Thole & Mejia. Personally, I believe a potential WS berth outweighs the potential of 3 questionmarks esp when the most experienced one could possibly be reacqwuired as a F/A next yr(Pagan) to me, we’d be sacrificing the sleeves from the vest in order to provide a tuxedo for the Party(WS)
      • Bob L July 2, 2010 at 12:53 pm

        hi ’62: no way Lee’s gonna sign with us even IF we got him to the WS. He’ll go for the highest bidder, which would probably be the Yankees. That’s what Hampton did with his fat deal with CO. Wouldn’t it be incredible, if we got Lee, got to and won the Series versus the Yankees…and then Lee signs a fat 4 – 5 year deal with the Yankees!
        And, again, 2 1st round picks are nothing more than a dreamer’s view of heaven. They’re just MAYBE an ‘educated’ shot in the dark.
        • METS62FAN July 3, 2010 at 9:43 am

          Bob, u are speculating based upon a WORST CASE POSSIBILITY, we’ve ALL agreed NOBODY KNOWS what’s in Lee’s mind; but one thing we can ALL agree upon, if we don’t make a BEST EFFORT to acquire him because FEAR is running the franchise. We’ve NO SHOT at acquiring a potential CY YOUNG WINNER for 2010 because we were afraid of possibly losing him to the Yankees after he delivered us a WS championship?
          Bob, Don’t know how u felt reading that line; but I’ll tell u I felt tremendously disappointed typing it. How can u rail against the team for the 07,08 results & advocate passing on an opportunity like this for fear of embarassment. Which is more valuable to u the Potential of a possible WS Title+ potential of 2 first round picks or the potential of a 29 yr old excellent extra outfielder+ a “wildly” talented 20 yr old pitcher -/+ embarassment of losing a valued “rent-a-player” to the Yankees. BTW, NO GUTS, NO GLORY!
          • Bob L July 3, 2010 at 9:59 am

            ’62, i don’t care if Lee wins the Barry Manilow Award(!) if we don’t get DEEP into the playoffs.
            Sure, i’m speculating. Aren’t we all? But, based on our lousy (mysterious?) road record and 2 tough teams in the upcoming SHORT home stand, i think odds (UNFORUNATELY) favor a bad 3 weeks to the deadline IF we do not trade for an ACE NOW.
            That’s all i’m saying. Trade for Lee or Haren, NOW. Please.
      • Jessep July 2, 2010 at 12:13 pm

        Mets62: I’m more concerned with Cliff Lee being 37 years old 4-5 yrs from now and making a ton of $. Pagan,Thole,Mejia mean nothing to me. If you told me Cliff Lee is signed through only 2013 then I’m in. However it’s more likely it’ll be 2015 and those 2 years are what create dark days for a franchise when it’s big $.

        He was upset because he was with a winner, not because he wanted to sign. He could’ve signed if he wanted to. You’re an agent, you see John Lackey an inferior pitcher of the same exact age get 5 yrs 85 m. Your job is to get more than that for your client, not to settle.
        • METS62FAN July 3, 2010 at 10:15 am

          Jess, u & Bob are both grasping @ straws after celebrating acquisition of maiden voyage Titanic tickets! Over paying 4,5 yrs from now? after how many championships & WS appearances? Jess, AFTER THAT DON’T EVER REFER TO OWNERSHIP AS CHEAP! Today, Lee is a bonafide Cy Young candidate
          How often does it come to pass for an opportunity like this? U want to pass it up worrying about costs in ’14 & ’15? BTW, I don’t care, Ollie’s money & likely Beltran’s money will be off the books by then The potential of a front 4 rotation of Lee,Pelfrey,Santana, Neise for 4 yrs is cewrtainly well worth overpaying by 5 or 6 M on one of them! None of the cheaper options are anywhere near Cy caliber this year
          • Bob L July 3, 2010 at 10:33 am

            Let’s get Lee or Haren now. Also, the pen has to be jostled. Is Parnell reliable? i guess we’ll find out over next 3+ weeks.
            But aren’t our kids playing great?: Niese, Ike, even Tejada has contributed, and plays good ‘D’, and he tipped K-Rod last night on the pick-off. i like that kid.
            Hearing Beltran may be activated, beginning Monday. Good idea, if he’s healthy, to let him playing for a few weeks, then he can rest a few days at the Break.
            We could be in good stead, with Beltran back, Parnell growing into a bigger role, and getting Lee or Haren, like now man, now.