Tim Marchman of SI.com, had an interesting piece yesterday in which he ranks each MLB teams core players. By his definition, core players would be the top four players.
By his reckoning, the top five quartets in baseball are as follows:
1. Yankees (CC Sabathia, Mark Teixeira, Alex Rodriguez, Curtis Granderson)
2. Phillies (Chase Utley, Roy Halladay, Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rollins)
3. Mets (David Wright, Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, Jason Bay)
4. Red Sox (Dustin Pedroia, Victor Martinez, Jon Lester, Josh Beckett)
5. Cardinals (Albert Pujols, Matt Holliday, Adam Wainwright, Yadier Molina)
I have one problem with his selections and wonder how Johan Santana was omitted from the Mets core?
He did include Roy Halladay who is two years older than Santana in the Phillies core, and obviously as he constructed the cores the Mets rank third behind the second place Phillies. But if the Mets core had been listed as (David Wright, Johan Santana, Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran) I could make the argument that the Mets could have the BEST quartet of core players.
If you were to assume healthy years from everyone on this list as well as age, wouldn’t you agree that the Mets are more solid than the Yankees or Phillies as far as core players go?
The point is that Marchman changed the whole dynamic of his analysis by leaving out one of the top five starters in baseball.
Of course this comes from the guy who runs a Mr. Met Myspace page and a fan site called Metsmerized…
I love Johan but he just isn’t one of the top 5 starters in baseball anymore. The following are better, in my opinion:
Lincecum
Greinke
Wainwright
Sabathia
Halladay
Felix Hernandez
Verlander
Haren
Josh Johnson
Cliff Lee
Johan is very close, but I consider all of those pitchers better than Johan right now.
I understand and see your point. Looking at your list, I might not be ready to put Wainwright, Greinke, Haren and Johnson ahead of Johan just yet. I’d want to see them string together 3 years of solid numbers before I do that, but yes Johan may not be a hands down top 5 guy anymore. Hopefully he can change that this season. Fingers crossed.
But on another point, were you okay with having Bay in the core over Johan? And if Santana were in his core, would you still rank them third or do the Mets move up at least to second?
Marchman is a proponent of advanced statistics and I’m sure he used them in his criteria. Personally I’d probably replace Bay with Johan but the difference wouldn’t be all that much.
As for Greinke, Haren and Wainwright — all 3 have been quite good for 3 years now and especially dominant in 2009. At least not enough to overtake the Phils quartet.
So cliff lee, haren, greinke, wainwright, halladay, verlander and josh johnson are better than johan santana???
I know is ur list and I respect it, but wow…
I don’t see it. Johan’s experience makes up for his slight loss of velocity. Obviously his injury history makes it hard to compare, but if he comes back to form, he’s downright filthy.
If I had the time I’d show you, with numbers (objectively) why I find all of those pitchers better than Santana right now. Again, I love Santana but he is past his prime, has been in slight decline and is coming off injury.
I don’t mean that Johan is better than ALL of them, just that he’s better than some of them.
Curtis Granderson is considered a “core” player? On the YANKEES?
agreed, i feel as if they overlooked some future HOF SS..i forget his name though.
Gotta remember that Johan was dealing with assorted injuries last year. He pitched great in ’08, and has a long track record of success. I don’t think its fair to bump him just for one lackluster year (by his standards) when he was dinged up.
But yeah, starting pitching overall has gotten a lot better the past few years. Its amazing what happens when people start testing for PEDs.
Johan should have been on that list, but I still think the Mets rank third even so.
Johan should have definitely been on that list, hands down. It doesn’t matter if he’s thought of as a top 5 pitcher or not. Two points to consider: One, Granderson can’t be considered a part of the core of the Yankees. I’m sure Mr. Marchman is saying the “core” is the top 4 players on the team but I saw that differently throughout the years. The core (in this case for the Mets) were the players near untradeable, untouchable if you will. Johan has to be included. Granderson just got traded and now he’s “untouchable”? Doubtful. Two, adding Johan MAY not cause us to overtake the Phils on this list but here’s a question: Are Granderson, Utley, and Rollins top 5 in their positions? That could change the Mets standing in this list.
Yu da man – I agree!
YU should know utley IS the best second baseman in ALL baseball.. so technically yes he is top 5..
Jimmy rollins is getting to be one of the most overrated player in baseball, after I checked his numbers, he doesn’t do it for me, he’s had 1 good season since 2003 that I can remember and that was his mvp season, and of course, those 38 hr’s were a product of some small stadium and all of the sudden suspect power he developed, if I had to pick a quartet I pick the yankees and mets, if going with 5 core players the mets then have the best adding santana, is the rest of the team that worries me, those teams mention got good players around them, we hardly do..
I think the better story would be to compare the statistical difference between the top-4 “core” players and the rest of the team. I’ll bet the Mets have a high disparity. I think therein lies the problem. That and some inexplicably abysmal luck over the years.
This is the biggest argument AGAINST using advanced metrics i’ve ever seen. Marchman is a huge proponent of advanced metrics. Advanced metrics have their place in baseball…as a tool. Not a definitive way to construct a team. The Yankee core with Curtis Granderson and not Derek Jeter? Does Marchman even watch baseball, or does he just pour over stats?
The Met ‘core’ without Johan? The Red Sox core minus Kevin Youklis? The Cardinals with Wainwright over Carpenter? Wainwright has had 1 great season. Carpenter is a CY Young winner and could have won last year too. I understand about only having 4 per team but please….