22
2010
Mets Trade Brian Stokes For Gary Matthews Jr.
An article by 
Latest Update 12:00 PM: Jon Morosi of Fox Sports as well as WFAN is reporting that reliever Brian Stokes is the player going to the Angels to complete the Gary Matthews Jr. deal.
It’s a good move and gives the Mets a strong backup to Angel Pagan who will start while Beltran is out. It also keeps F-Mart in the minors, where he belongs.
The best part is that the Mets are paying Matthews about $2 million over two years, or $1.0 MM annually. You can’t argue with that.
Latest Update 11:10 AM: There’s speculation that a third team could be involved like the Reds and the Angel Pagan may be involved somehow in a trade for Bronson Arroyo. This is all speculation at this point and comes from Baseball Digest on Twitter.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
According to a recent tweet from Jon Heyman of SI.com, the Mets are on the verge of acquiring outfielder Gary Matthews Jr. from the Angels.
Matthews, 35, has hit just .248 since signing a five-year, $50 million contract with the Angels in 2007.
Heyman believes the Angels will pay most of the $24 million due to Matthews during the next two seasons.
Hmm…
I assumed this could involve current Mets second baseman Luis Castillo, but now I hear that he is not involved in the deal.
Heyman also says Beltran will return in late April, but that the Mets are worried.
Details to follow…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
Went to my first Mets game, a Mayors Trophy game at Shea, in '73. We beat the Yankees 8-4 and I was hooked. I marched in two Banner Day parades, and before the Grand Slam single, there was the "Hendu Can Do" grand slam - I was there. I've collected Mets memorabilia all my life and started Mets Merized Online to feed my addiction.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nationals | 26 | 18 | .591 | - |
| Braves | 26 | 20 | .565 | 1.0 |
| Mets | 24 | 21 | .533 | 2.5 |
| Marlins | 24 | 21 | .533 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 23 | 23 | .500 | 4.0 |
Last updated: 05/25/2012
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SI mentioned Angels like Stokes. i hope it’s Castillo on a jet plane to Southern CA!
I hope castillo or Oliie Is involved. Also this deal signals to me that we won’t see Beltran until the All-star break.
Joe, this is a terrible deal. I dont know how you could just sugarcoat it the way you have. This guy is a -1.1 WAR!
People,
KNOCK if off with all the other names. That’s all this deal is. Good job, Joe.
We are paying 1.5 million!! Who cares? If we were paying the entire salary of 23 million id say its horrible. Hell I know a certain backup who earns 2 million. You all just love to complain. He’s a backup for 1.5 million, gee get over it!! Stokes is an overrated guy. Did you see his k/bb ratio and whip?? I always cringed whenever he came to a game, he was one pitch away from blowing it all. Your obession with stokes is as irrational as the obsession with hudson!! Very overrated. And matthews is not a starter, but as a backup…I mean what did u expect?? Curtis granderson???
We are paying 1.5 million!! Who cares? If we were paying the entire salary of 23 million id say its horrible. Hell I know a certain backup who earns 2 million. You all just love to complain. He’s a backup for 1.5 million, gee get over it!! Stokes is an overrated guy. Did you see his k/bb ratio and whip?? I always cringed whenever he came to a game, he was one pitch away from blowing it all. Your obession with stokes is as irrational as the obsession with hudson!! Very overrated. And matthews is not a starter, but as a backup…I mean what did u expect?? Curtis granderson???
Correction 1 millon per yr. How can You complain??
I like this trade, good for the mets depth.
Mets fans need to chill and stop bashing trades made. I liked Stokes but Matthews is a good addition and makes the bench deeper when Beltan comes back. We need a pitcher like Jon Garland and then re-sign Delgado and stay healthy and we will be fine. I am sick and tired of these stupid Mets fans bashing every move. If you are a true fan you have hope so shut up to all the annoying fans.
Oh, wait. You pulled out the “true fan” card!
I guess we should stop reviewing all moves with a critical eye from now on.
Omar has made great moves (Johan trade, signing Beltran, John Maine trade, etc.) and terrible moves (re-signing Oliver Perez, 4 years for Luis Castillo, Willie Randolph/Tony Bernazard/Adam Rubin situations). Its fair for “fans” to offer their opinions (either positive or negative) on any of these things.
I’m not a huge Pagan fan, but he is better than Gary Matthews Jr. at this point in their careers.
If they swing Pagan for a SP (Arroyo or Harang, with the Reds eating a big chunk of salary), I’m fine with this.
The same fans who are bashing these trades, are the same ones that if we didn’t make them, would be crying about why the Mets don’t have a backup for Pagan.
That backup should have come from a prospect taken back in a trade a few years ago or a rule 5 pickup or an insurance minor league sign last month. There is no chance Mathews will be even close to an average center fielder either at bat or in the field. How hard could it be to see that with Beltran’s knee and Pagan’s history the need for a CFer to stash in AAA just in case might be huge. Jeez doesn’t anyone think about tommorow with this team?
Agee, maltreatment of the minor leagues has been a SYSTEMIC CONDITION FOR THIS FRANCHISE. Just think, Over the past few years we’ve reacquired 4 former NYM milbers(Endy Chavez,Angel Pagan, Jason Bay, Anderson Hernandez) most jettisoned by Phillips. Another important note is that of all the positive qualities possessed by NYers, PATIENCE isn’t in abundant supply. For too many years, position players were ignored during the draft, before that it was Power hitters at no time can I ever recall a Policy of signing BEST AVAILABLE as most teams seem to follow. Phillips was on record more than once as being frustrated by trying to forcast future positional needs when drafting which was why he believed in drafting the best available pitcher due to his belief that a stockpile of pitching could be dealt for filling positional needs. Surely u must realize the milb outfield prospect best positioned to be that backup is F-Mart, his not having played much since his rather tepid cup-o-cffee last yr certainly detracts from his candidacy making a 1M/yr investment in Matthews more tenable. While I poersonally liked Stokes when used properly, he wasn’t since he seemed to be either ignored totally ot overpitched by Jerry. Despite Stokes’ talent it was patently onvious he’d never be allowed to establish himself under current regime.
I know ’62, that’s why I want the philosophy to change. This way is not working. It came close one year then fell apart and we just keep chasing our tail. The two World Series Championships that we did win were fueled by two things. 75% homegrown talent and 25% smart trades. Some of those trades were of the 1 step back 2 steps forward variety (Darling Terrell for Mazilli and Bailor for Fernandez) Imagine that trading 2 major leaguer’s for 3 minor league pitchers. Wow, Now that’s building a TEAM. jeff doesn’t like this approach because it takes too much time and someone else might get the accolades he so desperatly wants so he keeps doubling down every year after another loss and he’s soon to blow his bankroll with this approach and be put on a strict allowance by his father leading to 7 years of famine for us. Other trades that bore fruit were Clendenon, Keith, Ojeda, Knight? and you know the others and I don’t have to give you the names of the homegrown players we had here in 69 and 86. If you want to play the different era card I’m hip but you know what. Take a look at the homegrown players on other teams rosters. I’m talking STARS and not all taken in the 1st round either. Eventually one of these prodigal sons will have to wake up, curtail their wild spending, roll up their sleeves and start planting for the future.
Agee, #1 in 69 all teams built the old fashioned way with draft+trades so I: would challenge u by pointing out the succesws of ’69 was the inevitable result of so many(6) last place finishes(’62-’67)+ a very lucky lottery(Seaver).’86 was the makings of a very enthusiasticly competitive majority owner(Doubleday) & an extremely knowledegable veteran Baseball genius(Cashen) combined with perfect timing(Mex’ pending drug scandal) amongst other things; but don’t forget even they were pressured by fans to dabble in the highend F/A pool competing w/NYY over Winfield then acquiting Foster as sort of a consolation/booby prize. I could be dead wrong; but Fosters may be the last big contract eaten by NYM & Fred still has the bad taste in his mouth! Just imagine his indigestion every time Bonilla’s name is ever mentioned.
I’ll also use this oportunity to correct another of our disagreements as to whether Perez & Maine were targets or throwins. Remember, we traded Kris Benson to Baltimore for Jorge Julio & got Maine as throwin, Xabier Nady to Pittsburgh to reaquire Roberto Henandez as setup replacement for Duanner Sanchez(taxi’) with Perez thrown in. Again, I’d have to believe Peterson was instrumental in identifying both as servicable accolytes to his method. Perez, like Zambrano before him took longer than the minutes Rick likely alllocated. Maine like Pelf unfortunatly became too indictrinated. Their deprogramming continues slowly.
With Stokes gone, does this set up a John Smoltz signing?
Newsday’s Ken Davidoff says we should stay away from Smoltz.
Hopefully the Mets will use some of the money saved and buy him some HGH. Look at those 2006 numbers!
Garland is a durable flyball pitcher who eats up innings. He’d be a cheap sign at this point, and Citi Field/NL would certainly be friendly to him. Sign Garland, and either take a big flier on Sheets, a little flier on Smoltz, or trade for Harang or Arroyo.
I don’t really like or dislike this deal. I guess it’s a smart move, although I think to me what it signals is they think Beltran will be out a while.
Either way, this deal doesn’t change my thoughts on our season. This is a 4th place team. Acquiring a backup center fielder doesn’t change the landscape of the roster.
HORRIBLE TRADE. We could have picked up Eric Byrnes for the Major League Minimum and saved ourselves from this cancer in the clubhouse. Don’t we have enough head cases on this team?
Matthews is going to want to play every day. Perez and Pelfrey are the schizo brothers, and Castillo can’t catch a ball to save his life. Want depth? SIGN A FREE AGENT FOR THE MAJOR LEAGUE MINIMUM. Don’t GIVE away a Major league Reliever (he wasn’t great, but he wasn’t TERRIBLE), for a piece of washed up garbage that nobody else wanted.
Great job Omar. You want praise for depth? Buy a 10 foot swimming pool…because all this move did was piss me off.
Don’t let the door hit you on the a$$ on your way out.
Nice rant Mike but you’re wrong. Byrnes is washed up. They are not paying Matthews much more than the minimum. Clubhouse cancer? Show me a link proving that.
What proof do you want? Look at the Angels fans throwing themselves on every forum rejoicing that he is gone! Mike Soscia couldn’t deal with him anymore. Who benches a player that’s paid 10 million or more a year?
Seriously–make sense before you ask for proof. The guy complains about everything. Watch his games. If ever he’s on ESPN, it’s because he’s complaining about no playing time or calls. He just does NOT know how to play baseball.
Here, knock yourself out reading about his stupidity:
http://fromthedugout.freedomblogging.com/2009/10/27/gary-matthews-jr-thinks-youre-stupid/39795/
http://jorgesaysno.blogspot.com/2009/10/market-for-gary-matthews-jr.html
The guy just can’t keep his mouth shut. That’s what your agent is for. He needs to shut up and play baseball. He feels a sense of entitlement because he had one DECENT year. He’s a malcontent and a potential cancer in our clubhouse. Enough said.
Clearly I’m going to need a new, more distinctive screen name.
Mike, we need to differentiate our rants from one another!
Your truly,
Another Mike
LOL Agreed. I’ll be Mike**
As a $50M free agent owed $23M for two more years he’s clearly a bust. He obviously did do steroids – no argument there. The guy just wants a fresh start and for $1M per year I’ll give him a shot, especially with Beltran out.
Look at Eric Byrnes’s stats over the last two years compared to the previous two years and tell me that he wasn’t doing steroids too. Byrnes is no 4th outfielder anymore and certainly no fill in for Beltran.
Look, if he comes here and shuts his mouth and just plays the game, I’ll jump on board. For 1 million, not a HORRIBLE numbers game the Mets played….
but until he can prove that, I’m not in agreement with this trade. His historical performance on and off the field speak otherwise.
We’ll see. Time will tell…I hope Omar’s on the phone with the Reds GM right now…
You and Omar/jeff will give him a shot. That’s great. Giving a shot to a yet another 35 year old (this one a former steroid user) who is ranked 90th out of 104 major league outfielders. And to give up a potentially useful piece as well. Brilliant. Just brilliant.
You want washed up?
Here’s your boy’s stats for the last two years:
2008: 8HR 46 RBI .246
2009: 4HR 50 RBI .250
.962 and .978 fielding percentage last two years.
Eric Byrnes is not much better, but he wouldn’t have cost us a major league reliever and would have saved us half of the amount we’re paying Matthews. With the way the Mets are watching their money, believe me it would have made a difference.
Also, don’t bring up Castillo not being able to catch a flyball. If you want to say his range sucks, fine, but just because he missed 1 fly ball, that doesn’t mean he can’t catch.
Castillo not being able to catch the most ROUTINE fly ball in our enemy’s stadium will NEVER be forgiven. It wasn’t just ONE bad catch. His defense has been atrocious all year. I’ll support Mets’ players like Santana who battled it out all year and proved his worth *(at least relatively speaking).
Don’t sit there and tell me I can’t be critical of Castillo’s defense. It’s my right as a fan and quite frankly, I don’t need to back it up. The proof is in the pudding.
Look at HOW he tried to catch the ball. One hand….no fundamentals. He CAN’T CATCH. He’s garbage. Wright, Santana and even Francoeur are much better, stable players.
I wasn’t saying you can’t criticize his defense, but to say he can’t catch because he dropped 1 ball is a bit much. I agree that he sucks defensively, but I wouldn’t say he can’t catch because of 1 drop.
True.
Man, we traded a bullpen consistent Stokes for this bad attitude. God, what else can go wrong?
Some points to share that I posted on Twitter.
1. Alex Cora gets more than triple what Mets will pay Matthews this season. For $600K it’s a steal for Mets, and they still have dollars to give for Sheets and a catcher.
2. Igarashi and Escobar made Stokes expendable. K-Rod, Feliciano, Green, Parnell, Everts complete the bullpen. Misch will be in AAA in reserve if needed.
3. Matthews should outproduce Jeremy Reed or Cory Sullivan. Considering what the Mets are paying its not a big concern. He’s just a backup plan in case Pagan gets injured.
4. Stokes wasn’t even tendered an offer, unlike Maine, Francoeur, Feliciano who were all signed. Who’s to say he was even going to make the team? He had a 3.95 ERA and that doesn’t even consider all the inherited runners he allowed to score. If iot did his ERA would be 5.97.
Yes. All great points that you made. Matt cerrone is a whiner saying we could’ve had jeremy reed. Matthews might not be any good, but he is better than reed, sullivan and all those clowns the mets threw there. Unlike those, he has had sucess in the past and is a MAJOR league veteran not a minor league one. Stokes was a very lucky guy. In the AL he was never very good with tampa.
i like this trade. esp since the mets are only paying $2 million for the guy. would be great if they could get rid of Castillo. I i would do the Pagan for Arroyo deal if they can get it done. But i would try for Sheets. High Reward guy right there
Does anyone know which team takes the hit for luxury tax purposes? Just because Angels are sending money with Matthews doesn’t necessarily mean that baseball will keep the salary on their books. I wonder if this might limit the Mets flexibility to add players for this year. I hope I am wrong but we all know that the Wilpon’s put their wallet away once the luxury tax (salary cap) becomes an issue. Regardless, is anyone else disappointed that the Mets couldn’t have eaten more of the money and perhaps had Napoli thrown into the deal to address the catcher’s position at the same time.
That’s a great question. I’ll get the answer and let you know.
I agree with you Joe that this is a great question. Certainly original compared to everything I’ve read about this trade over the last 8 hours or so and perhaps more relevant than any other concern about the deal. I look forward to reading what you discover.
Thank you for the ratings boost this morning, it is greatly appreciated.
My pleasure.
Mark, according to Cot’s Contracts, the Angels take the hit on the portion they kicked into the deal. It counts against them for luxury tax and calculating team payroll.
Thanks for the clarification. Saw this debated on another site with the consensus the Mets would take the hit. That made absolutely no sense to me. There is no way Wilpon/Omar would take on 20 million plus in the budget column, even if it wasn’t from their pockets – that would count towards the luxury tax for GMJ.
The situation may be more complicated. The Baseball Luxury Tax, AKA the Competitive Balance Tax, is defined as the average annual values of contracts and added benefits for players on 40-man rosters. It is modifies with changes during each season. Elsewhere at another blog site, it was defined based on 25-man rosters.
The tax threshold for 2009 was $162 Million, for 2010 it’s $170 Million, and for 2011, $178 Million.
Here is an example concerning the Mets during the 2009 season. Gary Sheffield was signed by the 2009 Mets in early April, 2009, just before the start of the season, for $400 Thousand. He previously had signed a two year $28 Million contract with Detroit for the 2008-2009 seasons. Since the tax is based on the 40-man roster and supposedly includes average contract values with changes during the season, were the Tigers hit for the full $13.6 Million difference that Mets didn’t pay? Considering Sheffield’s pre-season departure date from the Tigers, were they responsible for any Luxury Tax money? He wasn’t on their Opening Day 2009 roster. Of course the Tigers were on the hook for the $13.6 Million. But regarding the Luxury Tax, did his departure nullify any of Detroit’s obligations?
The details of the Luxury Tax may not be easily determined, because the process for determining ‘average values’, benefits, and roster definition size was not defined.
To those who don’t like Gary Matthews Jr. but want to keep it in the family, try Gary Matthews, the original. Sarge, as he is affectionately known, does some pretty good analysis for the Phillies broadcasting team.
But if you like confrontational guys at the mike, pass on this recommendation. Sarge and ex-Mets broadcaster, Tom McCarthy, work well together.
This is not good. Gary Matthews SR. is an announcer for the phils, and a damn good one. This will create some uncomfortable situations for him and the fans. The mets will be terrible regardless.
Look, people, in the annals of Mets trades this will be ranked 246th on the List entitled “Scrub for Scrub.”
Woo-hoo, the Gary Mathews Jr.-era has begun!
I don’t mind it.
Like you said, it gives us a back up to Pagan and at $1 million? Not bad
Not a bad trade IMO for some insurance at CF during Beltran’s absence. Matthews will be better than Cory Sullivan and provide the backup role. It is a cheap solution. Stokes was not indispensable and will not be missed. Not the perfect solution, but essentially a decent move by Omar. Now with Bay and Matthews on board, we have an OF. Let’s move on to pitching before it’s too late to do anything. John Garland up next.
This is insane- a 35 yr old OF who is a 250-270 hitter wi now limited range for a guy who can throw 95?? I gues Slomar felt bad for missing out on LoDuca…God it is hard to like his team-
Wow what a deal! Thats it, the missing piece! Where do I go to get on line for play off tickets!
I truly believe Jerry & Dan misused Stokes by either ignoring his existance or pitching his arm off(repeated over use).
For all those “Value” focused fans, this must be an ultimate jackpot since we bought Stokes’ contract from Tampa for very little, getting servicable relief innings from Brian & now turning that initial small finasncial investment into Sarge’s baby boy @ virtually $1M/yr. Talk about stretching a dollar, you’d think Omar was back with the Expos!
If this ultimatly allows Pasgan to be centered in an Aroyo deal, all those accusing Omar of just buying his way to solutions, should be permanantly silenced!
Get rid of Pagan? What are you nuts. What if Carlos can’t play CF when he comes back? What if he only plays CF 3 or 4 times a week? What if he gets hurt again? Gary Mathews Jr. is one of the worst outfielders in baseball today. Why do you think the Angels were so willing to pay 21 million to get rid of him? Because he’s good? He is ranked as the 90th best (out of 104) outfielders in the major leagues today. His value was MINUS 5 million dollars last year. Few other options other than perhaps Mr. Met himself would be worse in CF. Although maybe I’m not thinking this this all the way through. Hmmm Gary Mathews Jr. or Mr. Met? Well there was that catch in Texas. Then again I’ve seen Mr. Met show some surprising quickness getting away from the dunking tank and he definitly has a cannon for an arm (at least with the t-shirts.) plus we wouldn’t have to give up anything and I think he’s already under contract. That settles it. I’d rather have Mr. Met in CF than Gary Mathews Jr.
Agee, sabremetrics again? Do you ever actually watch a game? BTW if they were invernted back in the 60s I wonder how your namesake would fare, as many of us old timer’s know he had an uncanny knack for being out of position necessitating rocoveries of the spectacular nature. I knw that’s NYM herasy as his 2 Greatests were Vs Baltimore. Age, as a 4th or 5th outfielder Sage’s little boy will do fine in his second NYM stint. Why wouls Angels deal him? Try this answer TORI HUNTER!
’62, Ive never discussed sabermetrics until this last post but when all the defensive metrics show the same decline over the same period (last 3 years) you would be a fool not to take notice. I watch at least some, usually most, and sometimes all of the Met game on TV or in person. Either catching it in the evening or the next day on SNY. Plus I also like the Angels and catch them when their in town or watch them on TV when I get the chance and I can state from watching GMJ play he cannot catch up to balls hit over his head. ’62, You’ll see what I’m talking about when he takes the field. Nothing sabermetric about it, sorry, it’s just the truth. Trading Pagan would be the worst possible move. As for my favorite player, Tommie Agee, I was 11 when he got traded so I can’t really comment on how good he was. He just was (and is) my favorite player. As for the Angels outfield they now have to go out and get a 4th or 5th outfielder but that didn’t stop them from jumping all over shipping out GMJ AND 21 million and their not a stupid organization.
Agee, I’m glad u prefer facts to sabremistakes since I want to pick a bone with u over one of your prior postings regarding your belief the Mets have too many players over age 35. Rediculous! a brief perusal of the 40 man rosters as currently constituted of 5 pertinent teams shows u are misinformed:
TEAM # 35+PLAYERS ON 40 MAN ROSTER
NYM 6 (Figueroa,Blanco,Coste,Castillo,Cora,Matthews)
ATL 6 (Hudson,Kawakami,Lowe,Saito,Wagner,Jones)
PHL 5 (Moyer,Castro,Polanco,Ibanez,Contreras)
BOS 8 (Okajima,Wakefield,Varitek,Lowell,Scutaro,Cameron,Drew,Ortiz)
NYY 6 (Marte,Pettitte,Posada,Jeter,A-Rod,Rivera)
of the 5 teams, The Mets have, I believe, their older roster positioned properly as either reverves held in minors or MLB benchers with only Castillo as a regularly used player. In fact, you may pay notice that the Mets are the only team listed here without a 35+ pitcher in the rotation or bullpen! Atlanta has the oldest pitching with 3/5ths of their rotation over 35 and the entire backend of their pen over 40! Agee, it’s truly remarkable how wrong perspectives can be. of those teams who have been considered true contender the past 4-5 yrs ours has been one of the younger rosters. Age is always A CONSIERATION WHEN BUILDING A ROSTER, THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF AGE CONSIDERATION IS WHAT ROLES ARE OCCUPIED BY OLDER PLAYERS. I certainly believe of these 5 teams the Met’s are the only one not to rely too heavily on 35+ers.Not one pitcher on NYM roster are 35+
Good post ’62, I acknowledge your point about quantity of 35+ year old players on today’s 40 man roster versus some other teams. I’ll admit to being a little surprised at your facts and appreciate your point. 3 factors that went into my numerous posts about our team reaching for the oldest solution that are not included in the current 40 man comparison though are 1.) we we’re looking at 2 more this year (Molina Delgado) 2.) The number of 35+ year old players in the last few years. (alou, Franco, Valentin, Wagner, Shawn Green, Schneider, Sheffield, El Duque, Tatis and even the discussion of Sosa and Bonds) and this goes WAY back even before Omar with Vaugn Alomar Ect. And #3.) The quality of the 35+ year old player. The other teams cited have at least 5 future hall of fame players on their list and a couple of other possibles. That’s not really the case with our 35+ year olds. But none the less good post, small eye opener but doesn’t really change my mind about the need for us to develop our own players who hopefully will at least be all star consideration worthy at the very least. Thanks for a good post.
p.s. and the effect of “trading” high draft choices for these older players. I know patience is hard to come by in NY but if you just bite the bullet once, do it right, and replenish the prospects coming up with more prospects coming in, its a sustainable model. Spending ALL your resources in a desperate attempt to win now, falling short and crashing for several years is what I’m tired of and with jeff at the helm I’m afraid he will continue to direct ALL the money his father gives him to work with into these past their prime players when we would be better served to start developing our own young cost controlled guys we can play, trade or otherwise replace as their performance (and the performance of those at the same position below)dictates.
Ex-juicers aged 35 are actually a lot older than their years. The mets organization seems drawn to the juice. I liked Stokes’ stuff. He may not have been in the plans with Escobar here. Oh wait, I said “plans.” The mets don’t know what those are.
jdon, BTW, for the little it’s worth, he never failede a test just implicated by UPS. I usually prefer hard evidence befotre condemning a man. yet as a #4 outfield option he isn’t horrible even if guilty. If he beats out Pagan as starter in CF this ST than so be it. He’d be proven best option. FYI, it’s circumstantial & contextual in nature.
Yo sons and daughatas……….the PHILLIES don’t make dumb moves. Phillies r da best in the MLB so no fronting ight?????? IGHT?!?!?! Yea.
Phil,
You a douchebag… how about you go read your phillies blog and stop worrying about what the mets are doing… and you gave have made about 3 dumb moves this offseason so don’t get me started
[...] Mets Trade Brian Stokes For Gary Matthews Jr. | Mets Merized OnlineLatest Update 12:00 PM: Jon Morosi of Fox Sports as well as WFAN is reporting that reliever Brian Stokes is the player going to the Angels to complete the Gary Matthews Jr. deal. It’s a good move and gives the Mets a strong backup to … Read more [...]
Agee, I understand that conceptiually your plan to keep replenishing from minors is doable; but there are other teams who have mostly chosen that path while eschewing big ticket free agents, Twins, A’s, Braves all come to mind. How’s that working out? I don’t recall many rings amongst them yet they are all considered excellent judges of developing talent. Of the 3 the Braves track record through the 90s was most impressive, yet once their own core of top tiered pitchers became Type A/B eligibles they folded like French Riviera beech chairs. BTW those Southerners/Mid-Westerners/laid back Californians are all a renowned patient lot! Certainly if your objective is Playoff games alone, it’s a successful formula; but if it’s jewelry, NOT SO MUCH!
Agee, your reply to my 35+ rebuttal was unreplyable, here goes… I certainly wish u’d limit yourself to Actual issues & forget the BS some presstypes encourage ala any Sosa/Bonds issues AS THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO EVIDENCE BEYOND STUPID CONJECTURING that those 2 were ever actually part of any serious discussion let alone consideration. Omar has always played his cards closely and u may recall the so called “interest in Sosa” was spawned by some hacks remembering a early connection between Omar’s scouting days with Sosa, it was all unfounded, just as any infatuation with Manny last season was pure guesswork. Even today, there’s no one who actually knows which way Omar is leaning, thus we’re pummeled with Sheets,Smoltz,Washburn,Garland almost daily with a different favorite depending on the creative writer.
Regarding thoughts of Molina & Delgado. Considering the goals were to increase the productivity out of all but Santana from our rotation & adding 30 or so HR out of 1B.
Is there a better,younger available answer out there than the 2 on the table? If not, we should curse the lack of depth available not the age of those being considered. If u agree with the need & there’s only 1 solution for that need what choice is there? Why curse it? That’s like cursing the dark while complaining about the electric bill.
Well actually there is. I heard Omar on TV discussing Sosa himself right after he got hired. I then read he was talked out of Sosa I believe by Bernazard. This was in the “restoring credability” phase of his regieme. Bonds was later when I heard him again on TV refuse to rule it out. I have no idea how much he considered either (probably not too much) but just the idea of it struck me as yet another band aid approach the kind we go through every 5-7 years and the last thing I expected when Omar stated in his first press conferance that “we are going to get younger and more athletic” If 75% of our production came from players who made their debut in the Majors in a Met uniform the two times we won the World Series then why are we getting away from all that. I’m not saying we should never sign a free agent. What I am saying is if we ONLY rely on either free agents, players other teams don’t want or can’t afford we have no shot. Here it is year 5 of Omar’s regieme and we should have passed the “hold the fort type player” phase. We should by this time have 2 young catchers, 2 young pitchers, 2 young outfielders and 2 young second basemen all in AAA or at least AA. The way it looks right now we have only 1 of each which means if one doesn’t pan out we’ll have to fill that hole with huge dollars and years or get another team’s reject or ship out a slew of prospects which will just further our dependence on players no one else wants or can’t afford. It is high time that we place a huge importance on drafting the best players, signing them regardless of slot, developing them correctly and patiently and then pairing them with another young player if need be in a platoon format to accentuate their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. This work should have been going on the first day Omar walked in the door. He can identify talent. He can hire people to develop it. He can see to it that we have the right people coming ready at the time we will need them. How many LFers Catchers and second basemen are we going to go through before we have ONE that can do the job that we scouted, drafted, signed, developed and brought up and put in a position to succeed. Or every year are we going to fill our needs with someone we have to pay too much for too long or players other teams will actually pay us to take off their hands or are both past their prime, coming off injury or both. ’62, that is the scenerio we are looking at until we can start producing our own players.
Agee, Omar has never revealed his plans whether by affirming interest by name or declining interest. the real proof is in the final product. If you want to start at the beginning, Let’s start with the state of the farm system on Day #1 of Omar’s tenure:
2 best position prospects promoted to Major League Roster”(Reyes & Wright) Best pitching prospect traded away (Kazmir) only one prospect of note per neutral evaluators (Milledge)
OK. you are Omar Minaya inheriting that mess along with a Fourth Place (71-92) major league roster featuring a relatively old, inadequate, on, lackluster rotation headed by Leiter & Glavine backended by Trachsel,Benson,Zambrano. your best player, Piazza, is nearing the end of his career and your bullpen is anchored by an ineffectual closer(Looper) First Impressions are most enduring your limitations are simple; DO NOT INCUR LUXURY TAXES, PROTECT MY LITTLE BOY FROM THE BULLY PRESS WHILE PRETENDING U HAVE CONTROL & DON’T REPORT TO MY INCOMPETANT SON & ALL PITCHING RELATED DECISIONS MUST BE APPROVED BY THE “PITCHING GURU(GM)/COACH.
Agee, I’m not going to blow smoke ANYWHERE Omar had very little excess of any value to trade since Jeff & Duquette decimated the roster without supplementing the minors. The only method for improvment available was free agency attempting to convince players capable of improving this team they weren’t going into a bad situation; but to get the best available mlb free agents you must sacrifice the best available amateur youngsters by surrendering earliest draft picks. You only have your current early first round pick to count on(Pelfrey) after that u’ll likely be making your first selections in the second or third rounds. By never being capable of improving the farm substantially you are damning yourself to continual F/A shopping or using less than adequate minor leaguers.
For all the bellyaching about not having Home Grown products; do u realize that more than likely 5 of the openning day stasrting 9 players have come out of our farm system:
REYES
WRIGHT
MURPHY
SANTOS
PAGAN
Angel, like Endy before him was a Met farmhand discarded by Phillips
Age, I hope this helps & I believe it’s all a factual accounting. BTW, just imagine that out of what Omar took over, he’d build a first place club accounting for a 97 Win season just 2 yrs removed from that miserable 71W team & without a farm system or Luxury taxes. TRULY AMAZING! The most apt descriptive word prominant throughout franchise history, God Bless Pearl Baily wherever she is.
While many choose to disregard Omar’s accomplishments by citing his large Payroll, I submit that from ’90 through ’04 the NYM payroll expendature has consistantly been amongst the top in baseball. Few results have overall been better than no worse than third not incl the decimated lost ’09, “ACT OF GOD” season. emotions aside, forgetting Fantasy league implications, however inept the Mets were in forcasting player returns, it wouldn’t alter sheer overwelming injury numbers which of themselves were too disastrous to survive competitivly.
***intersting side note for everyone, ehile investrigsting the payroll reference i founf the following info enlightening regarding Team Payrolls:
In 1990, the Mets had the second highest MLB payroll amongst these rankings:
#1 ROYALS @ $ 23,873,745
#2 METS @ $ 22,418,834
#5 YANKS @ $ 20,991,318
AND SOME SAY OBAMA’S SPENDING IS OUT OF HAND…FYI A-ROD,PERSONALLY IS EARNING MORE IN 2010 THAN TYHE ENTIRE YANKEE TEAM MADE IN 1990!
HOW’S THAT PERSPECTIVE?
DON’T BELIEVE? TRY:
http://content.usatoday.com/SPORTS/BASEBALL/SALARIES/TOTALPAYROLL.ASPX?YEAR=2005
PAGAN AND SANTOS ARE NOT HOME GROWN METS.
Anthony, oh contrare, one or the other, u can’t say Santos, though promoted out of our AA level isn’t a Met farmhand since he’d been draftede elsewhere & developed in another system anf in the same breath claim Paga, who was drasfted by Mets, developed until AAA a a Met, tradede to Cubs, played in majors with cubs, demoted foe short period by cubs isn’t a Met farmhand bewcause his learning & progressing through various levels up to AAA as a Met signifies he’s a NY MET farmhand. This same scenerio was shared by Endy Chavez who was also developed as a Met up to AAA. Reacquiring a player after you’ve developed him doesn’t wipe the “MADE IN” off his pedigree. If you oen an older Toypota that was manufactured in ZJapan; but sold in the USA. It’s still a Japanese import no matter how many owners register it or modify it.
’62, It was Amazing what Omar pulled off in ’05 and ’06 It might have been too good and too fast and made everyone think we could just re up the same guys or pick up some others and continue on that same path and compete every year. But great job Omar. The beginning of the problems started with signing Alou BEFORE the Giants even had to offer arbitration to him. Why the rush? Alou would have waited. Shit he was 40 years old. Don’t just hand over your #1 pick even if it is #28 or something it’s still a valuable commodity. Perhaps an important piece in 3-5 years that you just gave away, and to a team you might be fighting for a wild card with or meeting in the playoffs. I just don’t understand the thought process. But the thing that really killed me was we could have gotten 2 high picks for letting Castillo go and 2 more for keeping Wagner an extra month. That’s 5 picks in the 1st round and sup round just thrown away. If there was absolutely no solution at 2B we could have offered arbitration to Castillo lived w/him for 1 year and signed a better player the next year. No one can tell me no matter who we played at 2B in ’08 wouldn’t have been 2 games better than Luis and that would have put us in the playoffs and we wouldn’t be still trying to work around him now, next year and the year after. Without looking at where we went wrong we’ll just keep taking the wrong approach. I’m not screaming about the farm because I want a 25 man homegrown roster. I’m screaming about the young players because of roster flexibility. If you have to change a guy due to non performance or a much better fit comes along your not stuck with the young player. He could be traded, sent down or just cut. With Luis we’re stuck and it was both foreseeable (he had surgery on both knees) and cost us Hudson. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take 2 steps forward. When Omar came back he only had Milledge in the minors but he did have 2 of the 8 position players already taken care of and CF shortly thereafter. That only left 5 positions and he continues to take the old, past their prime, high cost, injury prone approach each and every time and each time he takes it it cost us in the farm which just keeps the merry go round turning. The last 2 type a free agents we lost resulted in us drafting David Wright, Aaron Heilman, Ike Davis and Bradley Holt. Say what you want about Heilman but he was at least successful enough to be on the mound in the 9th inning of game 7 2006 NLCS. Wagner wasn’t able to be there as he had thrown too many pitches the night before. What will Davis and Holt give you. Who knows? but at least they won’t stand in your way from acquiring a better player from a guaranteed multi year contract point of view and Who knows, maybe one of them gives you the production of a David Wright. The thing with prospects is that their so fickle. That’s why you need many of them and the first round draft picks by en large provide WAY more production than do the guys drafted furthur down. That is why it is so important to only give up your draft choices for a cream of the crop free agent who truly fits your needs and your team. A guy like Beltran for instance, not a guy like Alou (at 40) for a year or 2. Picking up picks from losing a Castillo or Wagner would have been absolutely huge in the long and short term. There is no reason we can’t draft and develop correctly from the 2nd round on too. The Blue Jay’s just hired 29 MORE SCOUTS. It won’t pay off tommorow but it will certainly payoff long before we’ve finished paying off Bonilla.
Age, much of what you wish is fine in a wilponless vacuum, besides NO LUXURY TAXES,NO SCANDAL PRONE PLAYERS, NO PAYING OUTSIDE DRAFT SLOT BONUSES THERE’S THE EVERPRESENT, AVOID ALL POTENTIAL ARBITRATION HEARINGS, THUS WE NEVER EVER OFFER IT. BTW, while Castillo was definitly a good choice at the time, $$/YRS not withstanding. One thing I certainly feel pretty certain of, is just as Bay did his due diligence by seeking out & talking to Wagner & Nafy, Santana certainly would have soughth out his only known contact with Met experience, Luis Castillo, are u willing to take a chance on Johan’s negating the deal just because Luis felt underappreciated?
(one thing wfew take into account, Luis Castillo was one of those players who did not want NYC as proven prior to the ’04 season when as a f/a he declined a lucrative contract from Phillips preferring to take less to return to FL thus causing NYM to opt for Matsui) So you now are Omar attempting to seduce Santana into waiving his NO-TRADE clause to switch leagues & come to a team he knows little about, just to get to offer him millions; your only option to influence Johan on a personal level is a slightly hobbled 2B who doersn’t like NY in general you can offer that 2b a runofthemill sy/4M & watch him seek other offers or you can overextend, making him feel much love with a generous offer he can’t refuse, a deal hoping he’ll jump at & tell his buddy how WONDERFUL u are.
Forget getting picks for Wagner, NYM ad agreed not to offer him arbitration when he signed.As it was a verbal understanding, Boston was not bound by it.
Age, try to understand the 28TH pick in any round is only really valuable if u get to use it on a potential earlier pick level talent that slipped to you due to bonus demands. Playing the slots u are precluded from that option.
There’s a lot od subtle issues with our ownership’s methodologies for conducting baseball operatrions & regardless of GM they are unlikely to change. Yet that are not as crippling as the choice to be a training franchise for the ‘BIG BOYS’ that Cincinnatti, Pittsburgh, Atlanta & Royals have become.
’62, We should be doing more than cursing the lack of depth. We should be addressing the root causes of it and changing the way we do business. Look at how many World Series Jeter, Posada, Williams, Rivera, and Petite won. We’ll be lucky at this rate if we ever get one. Meanwhile the Yankees homegrown players are working on #6. The Marlins have to ship out their players when they get too expensive and NEVER sign a free agent and they have the same amount of Championships as we do in 1/3 of the amount of years. The Braves rode their farm system and ONE free agent to 15 consecutive pennants. We have in the last decade spent over a billion dollars to get to the post season twice, with exactly ZERO world Championships. How much better could we have done if we had put 25% of that money into the farm? My opinion is quite a bit. The only question is will the Mets finally make a full scale commitment to building from within and only augmented occasionally with a top flight elite in their prime free agent or like Promethius do we continue to carry, push and roll the rock up the hill only to see it fall all the way back down everytime we get close?
Age, I love your mythological reference. It’s all Greek to the Wilpons lol
I, too am amazed at how dense people who’ve made a fortune in Real Estate evelopment can be so blind to the value of Player Development. My only logical answer is timing of ROI, perhaps they’re disinclined to invest so much into a property that takes 5 yrs to learn it’s value.
I’ve no idea; but I also see that a difficult concept has gotten impossible with the Selg slotting agreement by Fred. Fred’s a product of the Depression and like many of his peers, has difficulty wasting money on undelivered services or goods most likely why Jeff’s was the more prominent Wilpon name re. Maidoff as described by wikkipedia:
Jeff Wilpon
From Wikipedia
Jeffrey Scott Wilpon is the COO of the New York Mets baseball team and the executive vice-president of Sterling Equities. Jeff is the son of New York Mets principal owner Fred Wilpon. Jeff and other Wilpon family members invested with Bernard Madoff’s ponzi scheme that collapsed in 2008. Unlike many who lost their investments, it was revealed in the Madoff firms court case, In re Securities Investor Protection Corp. vs. Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, USBC SDNY No. 08-01789 that the family partnership run by Wilpon made $48 Million dollars in their dealings with the firm.
As of this moment, I believe the best & quickest option for us fans is for Fred to alter the reporting structure of the Team shifting the GM position under team president, Sol Katz on the org chart leaving Jeff with SNY & CITIFIELD operations. That can be sinply accomplished, quietly, sans scandal or backpage presence.
Good one ’62, I’m on board w/moving Jeff away from Baseball operations. Omar did do a good job with the Major League roster in ’05 and ’06 but no one is going to hit it right 100% of the time and shortly there after he made some bad moves and Jeff saw his chance to “take over” using Omar as a shield from the Media. At this point it’s important to realize that the int’l free agents are hard to identify because your projecting what a 16 year old can do as oppossed to an 18 – 22 year old. and the Int’l free agent takes an extra year or two to develop leading to 40 man roster problems. ie poaching from rule 5. I’m asking that whoever is in charge to rediscover the June amateur draft and consider it the primary source of player procurment and THINK before losing draft choices. THINK about 3-5 years down the road. Make some trades that will pay off in 2 – 3 years by adding to the farm especially in the area of a platoon partner for Thole (RH good D some pop) Bam that position is taken care of for 6 years. Extend Reyes and Wright. Find a CF in someone’s system and get ‘em here to replace Beltran in 2 years (Brett Jackson high A Cubs system) Hawkins looks like a possible LH hitting second basemen lets make sure we have a platoon partner to pair him with in 2 years. Do we have him now? If not lets look at other teams farms and see who we like. Between Murphy and Davis 1B could be set but how about a RH who can play 1B and 3B as a platoon/backup injury protection or should we be looking to increase the competition at that position. The idea should be to think about 2011 2012 and at least 2013 While putting the finishing touches on 2010. Otherwise we’ll have no choice but to continue to chase who ever comes on the market (the best won’t) Whoever is to blame, Omar or Jeff the basic philosophy has got to change. This never having an in house answer hasn’t gotten us any jewlry either. By the way I’m watching ESPN Deportes for the Dominican Baseball Finale including Nelson Figeroa (looks great) Fern Martinez (eh) Carlos Gomez (eh) Fransisco Liriano pitches tommorow at 6:30 for Escogido (Santo Domingo) vs. Gigantes (San Fran de Macoris) The winner of tommorow’s game represents the DR in the Caribbean World Series which starts Feb 2 – Feb 7 also on ESPN Deportes. Catch it if you can it’s a lot of fun.
Then ’62, we fans should pressure Fred that Jeff’s responsibilities be ‘reassigned’. See, i wasn’t too far off from making him boss of tickets and hot dogs!
In another vein, are you sure that the Mets and Wagner had a verbal deal that arb would not be offered to him? i recall it being reported differently last year, that the Mets had decided to NOT offer Wagner arb as a way to shed dollars from the payroll. i am still miffed over the Wagner deal with the Red Sox.
Bob,everyone knows how I feel about LIL JEFFIIE, I’m not optimistic enough to think Fred will sully his family name by reassigning(demoting) his son theerfore I’d propose everyone gets to save face and the GM position is switched to being under Team President & Partner, Sol Katz, not an out of the ordinary reporting structure, though I’m damned if I ubderstand the need to sepearate COO responsibilities & those of Presitent. removing Omar from the reporting shakles instituted by Jeff should revive the pre-collapse Omar Minaya from Purgotory of effectivness retraints.
Prometheus discovered fire; it was Sisyphus who rolled the rock up and down the hill.
Age, here’s the issue Bill Madden aptly pointed oout on SNY-DNL early in offseason(Wintermeetings?) if NYM are looking to resolve their opennings through a combo of signings & trades. “What do they have to trade?” We’ve cultivated a handful of socalled quality actual prospects in names like Davis,Flores,Havens, Holt,Thole, Mejia. prospects are the coin of the realm in MLB today, everyone wants & few willing to give up.
Considering our need to stay under the Luxury Tax threshold, the talent depth on the 40 is not considered more valuable than others & the discardable talented veterans with young upcoming heirs apparent are all too few. We’re going to have to lengthen our reliability on f/a mkt by dealing our few prospects if any mlb talent is to be acquired even in a salary dump situation or Jeff will be forced to assume much more debt than other teams might in acquiring same players, Arroyo, Phillips,Pena, Harang all fit into that category of acquisition & fans will have to accept it willingly. For this team right now it has to be more about ON-FIELD VALUE & NOT CONTRACTUAL VALUE.
’62, I already know you and probably everyone else will have a heart attack over what I would have tried this off season. With a desire to not trade any of our prospects and not having depth at the major league level how do we acquire prospects to provide in house solutions for 2011 – 2013 and beyond. Take on bad contracts. The Cubs were in a bind w/Milton Bradley and possibly preferred Castillo for 2B. Would it have been possible to provide the solution to the Cubs dilema by taking on Bradley (and his salary) giving them Castillo and receiving back 3 of their highly regarded prospects? Say Brett Jackson a ball hawking power hitting CFer, Wellington Castillo a rh hitting catcher and Ryan Flaherty a LH hitting SS, 2B, 3B. Don’t sign Bay, platoon Bradley w/Pagan. Back up Beltran w/Mathews jr. paying his full salary and picking up 3 top prospects one of whom they picked with our draft choice from the K-rod signing. (another CFer) Sign Lopez or Hudson for 2B, Pinero at what the Angels paid. Tell Milton if we have any problems with you we’re not going to cut you we’ll just put you on the suspended list, pay you and your career ends here. Do a good job become a type A in 2 years we’ll pick up 2 high draft choices. Result: aprox spending $10 million more than we paid for Bay alone. 2B is better, starting rotation is better and our farm has 6 highly valued prospects with an eta of 2012 – 2013. Just about the time we’ll be lamenting Jason Bay’s breakdown or lack of range in the Outfield or inability to get around on the fastball. Which approach do you think would serve our team better for the long run?
Age, I’d almost forgotten about:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2010/01/27/2010-01-27_tragedy_haunts_mets.html
which if Jeff hadn’t listened to the unwashed WFAN mob clamoring for more pitching in mid 2004, we’d likely still have Kazmir negating the need for Santana, meaning Gomez still a Met with a possible projected outfield in CITI comprised of Gomez, Cole, Milledge bewhinf an infield of Wright(3b),Reyes(SS),Wigginton(2B) Murphy(1B) with Flores @ (C). You can’t say that “plan” was without value, We wouldn’t have acquired Benson, meaning no John Maine; but certainly those homegrown core products would have allowed Omar much more flexibility with much less need for urgency. So, we were basicly derailed by bad Karma/Ford & Firestone & Jeff Wilpon/Rick Peterson’s 10 min to waste.
Well said. RIP Brian. A couple of tweaks ala ’05 or ’06 Omar and plenty of cash to do it with and all those draft choices rising up in the minors.
Trading Kazmir violated the 11th Commandment: ‘Thou Shalt Not Trade a 20yr old Lefty.’ But that said, Gomez, Milledge haven’t produced and isn’t Cole, that poor kid that died in a tragic car accident?
Bob, right on Cole being Brian Cole who died on 3/21/.01 at age 22 & was by all accounts our top outfield prospect.
Funny about the Commandment; but according to statements I’ve read issued by Kazmier, Bannister,Bell & Linstrum. they all indicate their unwillingness to alter their styles toTHE PETERSON METHOD, suddenly made them “injury risks” & expendable. Rick, being placed in complete authority over the franchise’s pitching development program had the ability to choose those pitchers he wished dealt & had Jeff’s support in ordering the GM to do so. Thus, Jeff gets to use his human shields from criticism as everyone links Duquette’s name to Kazmir, Minaya’s to Bannister,Bell,Linstrum & others. There would be no proof had not Peterson actively supported the Kazmir deal in the press indicating he could make ZZambrano just as good in 10min.