Comments on: Signing Starting Pitchers: Prices Are INSANE!

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:22:26 +0000

terrif? dump ollie? who are the owners of the team u root for? wilpons never,ever eat player contracts. see matsui,cedeno,bonilla,etc. i believe it goes back to fred’s experience lessons learned from dad during great depression, not wasting money by paying for services you don’t receive or some such. fred likely needed medication to buy out howe!

By: METS62FAN

METS62FAN — Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:17:45 +0000

mask, halladay’s demands to stay 23m+/?yrs would cripple any hopes for additional acquisitions there is a solid ceiling set at our spending, the closer we get to it esp with untradable contracts, the less our ability to address future needs. imagine having to bupass any shot at playing in ther pujols mkt because we’ve solidified our payroll too close to the luxury cap? unthinkable. here’s the other falicy… no trades are dealable; but to whom, what teams ae out there other than perhaps nyy,bosoz,laa who have the ability to acquire that big an item?
all of what terrif is saying is moot since mr. peabody’s wayback machine doesn’t truly exist. i shocked a few of you with some interesting payroll history items such as these listings of highest payrolls in last 20 yrs:
1989 – 21.6m, lad
1990 – 23.9m, kc
1991 – 33.6m oak
1992 – 44.4m, nym
1993 – 45.7m, tor
1994 – 44.8m, nyy*
1995 – 49.8m. tor
1996 – 52.2m, nyy
1997 – 59.1m, nyy
1998 – 70.4m, balt
1999 – 88.1m, nyy
2000 – 93.0m, nyy
2001 – 112.0m, nyy**
2002 – 126.0m, nyy
2003 – 153.0m, nyy
2004 – 184.0m, nyy
2005 – 208.0m, nyy***
2006 – 194.0m, nyy*
2007 – 189.0m, nyy*
2008 – 209.0m, nyy
2009 – 201.0m, nyy*
* denotes years when top payroll plateau dropped from prior yr
** breaking of 100m mark
*** breakingh of 200m mark
as is evident the progressive nature of payroll has been driven by mostly one team over the past 11 years
only a time machine will reverse the trend completely since only four times in the past 20 years has the top payroll number actually decreased from the previous yr. i beliebve this is a perfect example of what transpires when the inmates are running the asylum…lmao!
other than computing power can anyone specify a commodity that has actually decreased in price over this same 20 yr timeframe?

By: Yu

Yu — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:20:17 +0000

Buster Olney is usually good about things like this but with all the talk about Anaheim trying to re-upp for Lackey, this may be very good news:

“According to Buster Olney of ESPN.com, “There are signs they may have made a significant offer to free-agent LHP John Lackey.”

By: Yu

Yu — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:03:38 +0000

It seems obvious the Amazins picked the best of the bunch from this list. Molina is tops at catcher. 2Bmen Hudson, DeRosa, and Kennedy make perfect sense. Bay and Holliday are tops for LF’ers (Thames played 20, Byrd played 36 gms at the spot)..The pitching is weirder. Washburn(9-9/3.78),Doug Davis(9-14/4.12),Garland(11-13/4.01) are no diff than what we have at the back end already. Going after Lackey, Marquis, and Pineiro are no-brainers. Sheets is dicey so we need 5 solid starters locked in just in case. My only questions are why no interest in Bob Howry from SF(14-8 3.92) And for RP, Scott Eyre(2-1/1.50 in 42 apps)? They already like Darren Oliver with a 5-1 rec/2.71. None of the available 1B have a better OBP, SLG, or OPS than Carlos Delgado. Might as well bring him back for a year.

By: Yu

Yu — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:19:13 +0000

Here are the 2010 FA’s courtesy of MLBTR:
This may help put things into perspective…..

Catchers
Eliezer Alfonzo (31)
Brad Ausmus (41)
Paul Bako (38)
Rod Barajas (34) – Type B, offered arb
Josh Bard (32)
Michael Barrett (33)
Ramon Castro (34)
Toby Hall (34)
Bengie Molina (35) – Type A, not offered arb
Jose Molina (35)
Miguel Olivo (31) – Type B, not offered arb
Mike Redmond (39)
Yorvit Torrealba (31) – Type B, not offered arb
Matt Treanor (34)
Javier Valentin (34)

First basemen
Rich Aurilia (38)
Jeff Bailey (31)
Hank Blalock (29)
Russell Branyan (34)
Miguel Cairo (36)
Frank Catalanotto (36)
Tony Clark (38)
Carlos Delgado (38) – Type B, not offered arb
Nomar Garciaparra (36)
Eric Hinske (32)
Mike Jacobs (29)
Nick Johnson (31) – Type B, not offered arb
Adam LaRoche (30) – Type B, not offered arb
Doug Mientkiewicz (36)
Kevin Millar (38)
Fernando Tatis (35) – Type B, not offered arb
Chad Tracy (30)
Daryle Ward (35)
Dmitri Young (36)

Second basemen
Ronnie Belliard (35) – Type B, not offered arb
Jamey Carroll (36)
Craig Counsell (39)
Mark DeRosa (35) – Type B, offered arb
Nick Green (31)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
Orlando Hudson (32) – Type A, not offered arb
Adam Kennedy (34)
Felipe Lopez (30) – Type B, not offered arb
Mark Loretta (38)
Pablo Ozuna (35)
Juan Uribe (31)

Shortstops
Eric Bruntlett (32)
Orlando Cabrera (35) – Type A, can’t be offered arb
Craig Counsell (39)
Chris Gomez (39)
Nick Green (31)
Khalil Greene (30)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
Miguel Tejada (36) – Type A, not offered arb

Third basemen
Rich Aurilia (38)
Brian Barden (29)
Adrian Beltre (31) – Type B, offered arb
Aaron Boone (37)
Craig Counsell (39)
Joe Crede (32)
Bobby Crosby (30)
Mark DeRosa (35) – Type B, offered arb
Chone Figgins (32) – Type A, offered arb
Nomar Garciaparra (36)
Troy Glaus (33) – Type B, not offered arb
Adam Kennedy (34)
Mark Loretta (38)
Melvin Mora (38) – Type B, not offered arb
Pablo Ozuna (35)
Robb Quinlan (33)
Miguel Tejada (36) – Type A, not offered arb
Juan Uribe (31)

Left fielders
Garret Anderson (38) – Type B, not offered arb
Marlon Anderson (36)
Jason Bay (31) – Type A, offered arb
Emil Brown (35)
Marlon Byrd (32) – Type B, offered arb
Johnny Damon (36) – Type A, not offered arb
David Dellucci (36)
Cliff Floyd (37)
Joey Gathright (28)
Matt Holliday (30) – Type A, offered arb
Reed Johnson (33)
Laynce Nix (29)
Greg Norton (37)
Wily Mo Pena (28)
Dave Roberts (38)
Gary Sheffield (41)
Fernando Tatis (35) – Type B, not offered arb
Marcus Thames (33)
Randy Winn (36) – Type B, not offered arb

Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (30)
Rocco Baldelli (28)
Marlon Byrd (32) – Type B, offered arb
Mike Cameron (37) – Type B, not offered arb
Endy Chavez (32)
Coco Crisp (30)
Darin Erstad (36)
Jeff Fiorentino (27)
Ryan Freel (34)
Joey Gathright (28)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (34)
Reed Johnson (33)
Scott Podsednik (34)

Right fielders
Jermaine Dye (36) – Type A, not offered arb
Brian Giles (39) – Type B, not offered arb
Vladimir Guerrero (35) – Type B, not offered arb
Joey Gathright (28)
Eric Hinske (32)
Geoff Jenkins (35)
Austin Kearns (30)
Jason Michaels (34)
Xavier Nady (31) – Type B, not offered arb
Randy Winn (36) – Type B, not offered arb

Designated hitters
Hank Blalock (29)
Jason Giambi (39)
Vladimir Guerrero (35) – Type B, not offered arb
Aubrey Huff (33)
Mike Jacobs (29)
Hideki Matsui (36)
Gary Sheffield (41)
Matt Stairs (42)
Mike Sweeney (36)
Jim Thome (39)

Starting pitchers
Brandon Backe (32)
Cha Seung Baek (30)
Miguel Batista (39)
Erik Bedard (31) – Type B, not offered arb
Kris Benson (34)
Paul Byrd (39)
Daniel Cabrera (29)
Aroldis Chapman (22)
Bartolo Colon (37)
Jose Contreras (38)
Doug Davis (34) – Type B, not offered arb
Lenny DiNardo (30)
Justin Duchscherer (32) – Type B, offered arb
Adam Eaton (32)
Shawn Estes (37)
Josh Fogg (33)
Jon Garland (30) – Type B, not offered arb
Tom Glavine (44)
Mike Hampton (37)
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Livan Hernandez (35)
Rich Hill (30)
Shawn Hill (29)
Jason Jennings (31)
Jason Johnson (36)
Randy Johnson (46) – Type B, not offered arb
John Lackey (31) – Type A, offered arb
Braden Looper (35) – Type B, not offered arb
Rodrigo Lopez (34)
Noah Lowry (29)
Jason Marquis (31) – Type B, offered arb
Pedro Martinez (38)
Eric Milton (34)
Mark Mulder (32)
Brett Myers (29)
Vicente Padilla (32) – Type B, not offered arb
Odalis Perez (33)
Joel Pineiro (31) – Type B, offered arb
Sidney Ponson (33)
Mark Prior (28)
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Jason Schmidt (37)
Ben Sheets (31)
John Smoltz (43)
Brett Tomko (37)
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Todd Wellemeyer (31)
Kip Wells (33)

Closers
Mike Gonzalez (32) – Type A, offered arb
Kevin Gregg (32) – Type A, not offered arb
Fernando Rodney (33) – Type B, offered arb
Jose Valverde (32) – Type A, offered arb

Right-handed relievers
Luis Ayala (32)
Danys Baez (32)
Joaquin Benoit (32)
Chad Bradford (35)
Doug Brocail (43) – Type B, not offered arb
Kiko Calero (35) – Type B, not offered arb
Santiago Casilla (30)
Chad Cordero (28)
Elmer Dessens (38)
R.A. Dickey (35)
Brendan Donnelly (38)
Octavio Dotel (36) – Type A, not offered arb
Kelvim Escobar (33)
Eric Gagne (34)
Geoff Geary (33)
Dan Giese (33)
Edgar Gonzalez (27)
Tom Gordon (42)
Matt Herges (40)
Bob Howry (36) – Type B, not offered arb
Jason Isringhausen (37)
Jorge Julio (31)
Shane Loux (30)
Gary Majewski (30)
Guillermo Mota (36) – Type B, not offered arb
Joe Nelson (35)
Chan Ho Park (37) – Type B, not offered arb
Tomo Ohka (34)
Joel Peralta (34)
Troy Percival (40)
Juan Rincon (31)
Saul Rivera (32)
Duaner Sanchez (30)
Rudy Seanez (41)
Justin Speier (36)
Russ Springer (41) – Type B, not offered arb
Julian Tavarez (37)
Luis Vizcaino (35)
Tyler Walker (34)
David Weathers (40) – Type B, not offered arb
Jeff Weaver (33)
Jamey Wright (35)
Tyler Yates (32)

Left-handed relievers
John Bale (36)
Joe Beimel (32) – Type B, not offered arb
Alan Embree (40)
Scott Eyre (38) – Type B, not offered arb
Casey Fossum (32)
Eddie Guardado (39)
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Ron Mahay (39)
Will Ohman (31) – Type B, not offered arb
Darren Oliver (39) – Type A, not offered arb
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Glendon Rusch (35)
Scott Schoeneweis (36)
Brian Shouse (41) – Type B, offered arb
Ken Takahashi (41)
Jack Taschner (32)
Ron Villone (40)
Jamie Walker (38)

By: Pete M

Pete M — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:55:07 +0000

You guys are borderline nuts.
1. You never trade a Jose Reyes type player, period.
2. Pelfrey will always suck because he can’t strike people out.
3. Wang – ditto.
4. Correia sounds like a great acquisition.
5. Atkins would be an upgrade over Tatis.
6. Long term contracts are for position players ONLY. Arms are too fragile.
7. We’re stuck with Ollie.
8. Too bad the Mets are broke!

By: Yu

Yu — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:47:11 +0000

Yeah, Tom, think of the possibilities…..Can’t you visualize, at least, two strong packages for Jose Reyes, John Maine, and Mike Pelfrey (I wouldn’t even add Ollie because if they paid all his money, no team will take him). We could get a couple of arms and definitely a starting infielder and some bench guys out of it. All three of those guys I named are guys most teams they can fix or improve with. I bet with Peterson in their ears, the Brewers would take them all in a heartbeat as would Baltimore, Tampa, (perhaps) Boston, and a host of others. Hopefully this dream will become reality!

By: Tomterif

Tomterif — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:20:57 +0000

I agree MaskMan. I’d do the five for one swap (and they kick in a few dollars to offset some of the contract) and then our team slogan can be: Halladay and Bay and make other teams pay! (Or since it’s Chanukah: Make other teams say “Oy vay!”)

By: Tomterif

Tomterif — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:06:43 +0000

I would definitely take a chance on Wang, especially coming over the NL. Only problem is: didn’t he get hurt running the bases?

By: Tomterif

Tomterif — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:05:13 +0000

Kevin, as I said in the piece, Pelfrey should have had one more full year dominating Triple A before he got rushed up. Then when he had some success because his has great natural movement on his fastball, the organization talked itself into believing he was ready. I don’t see him as anything more than a number three starter, if that much, in the majors and those guys are a dime a dozen. Might as well deal him when his value is high because he’s still young and some team might think they can improve him.

By: Tomterif

Tomterif — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:01:56 +0000

This is a great conversation. Yu, a couple of things. On Reyes, one of the biggest red flags with him are the reports since the end of 2008 that he’s become more interested in late night catting around with the ladies than getting prepared for games. If he’s not going to be serious about the game, I don’t want him here. As for Maine, it’s not that I’m so in love with him (I don’t think his off-speed pitches are good enough for him to be a big winner), but I think we can get more for Pelfrey, who I see as having only slightly better upside than Maine at this point. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind overhauling the whole starting staff except for Johan.

By: theonlymaskman

theonlymaskman — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 19:01:13 +0000

Garrett Atkins has been declining for several years now and contributed nothing this year. Maybe he can recover with a change of scenery, but he is far from a lock.

By: kevin

kevin — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:45:19 +0000

First time I’ve read trading Pelfrey as an option. I really dont see any qualities that justified why the Mets took him with the 7th overall pick. We could have drafted Elsbury, Bucholtz, Maybin or McCutchen who all followed the Pelfrey pick. He’s a bust, and will never be better than Trachsel at best. That first round was full of fireballers and we take the sinkerballer who gives up more homers than we can stomach. BUST!

By: Bob L

Bob L — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:39:56 +0000

i agree. Wang will be non-tendered tonight. Correia looks good to me. Nady also a F/A. Bummed we didn’t pursue Tim Hudson whom the Orioles got for nothing; and why the hell did we sell our Rule 5 pick to the Dodgers for bupkus cash?! Hope there’s a trade pending with the Dodgers.
Meanwhile, is Garrett Atkins any good?

By: Yu

Yu — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:34:50 +0000

Wow, Tom. All of the Mets fans I talk to never seem to want to go here. You’re the first that ever agreed with me about Reyes. He’s not the only one but there are SEVERAL players that the Mets could’ve gotten value for BEFORE their decline. I have felt since last year that although Jose is a great talent, there’s something from a consistency and perhaps even emotional standpoint that is not working. His reaction to discipline says something to me personally too. We should’ve traded him for what Boston was offering 2 years ago. At least, we’d have gamers on our team. NEW YORK TEAMS ALWAYS NEED GAMERS and not complainers…Like I said, there’s several players starting with Maine and ending with Delgado. We could’ve came out like bandits!

By: Yu

Yu — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:27:07 +0000

I agree with everything except keeping Maine. I think the reason why he was in trade talks for 3 days with the Brew Crew was because they’re not confident in him either. I think he’s a potential “injured every year guy”. We need to shake him loose while we can. Your suggestion is a deal that can actually get done….

By: theonlymaskman

theonlymaskman — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:25:14 +0000

Given the uncertainties concerning Reyes’ physical condition, Toronto would never agree to any deal including him at this time.

By: Tomterif

Tomterif — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:44:30 +0000

I think we really need to be aggressive on those non-tendered guys if they match up well with the guys already out there on the market. I would try to sign Marquis or Piniero if reasonably priced, keep Maine, dump Ollie and include Pelfrey in a trade.

By: Tomterif

Tomterif — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:42:39 +0000

Thanks Bob. The other day Francesca was saying that the Mets shouldn’t trade Reyes in a Halladay package but perhaps they could do it for prospects and even then paying 100 million for a 33 year old starter is crazy. Frankly, I wouldn’t necessarily discount a Reyes-Halladay trade if you don’t have to give up too much else. I’ve long felt that if we were going to trade one of the “core” guys it should be Reyes. I’ve totally lost my patience with him and that was before the injuries. He’s a great talent with little baseball instincts and the jury is out on whether he’ll ever really emerge as the consistent, solid star we all thought he would be. It’s a shame he got hurt last year because I would have wanted to use him to bring in a big pitcher or re-stock the farm system. Now we have to hold our collective breath and hope he makes a comeback and matures at the same time. If our shortstop is not going to be a team leader or one of the smartest guys on the field–or at least solid if the rest of team is carrying the load–then he’s not worth it. Remember, we won a World Series in 1986 with Rafael Santana at shortstop.

By: Bob L

Bob L — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:49:48 +0000

Yes, i think we’d have to have gotten a Bay or have ‘fixed’ the LF hole already, and probably have done other signings, for Doc to ok a trade to the Mets.
Separately, just saw that Kevin Correia may be non-tendered by the Padres today. Seems to me, he’s younger than a Marquis, Garland, et al, and in same category of pitchers. We should think about geeting him, if he becomes available.