Not looking to knock Mike Cameron who is a god among mere mortals in some circles, and is revered by so many Mets fans, but seriously can we stop the comparisons to Jason Bay already?
Are players no longer to be valued for who they are but instead scrutinized endlessly and compared to players that they have nothing in common with?
Is there nothing in the world of advanced metrics that bodes well for Jason Bay? Something? Anything?
I think some stats enthusiasts are holding out on us…
The two play completely different positions and comparing the two is like comparing a pea to a papaya.
With regard to all this hoopla calling for Mike Cameron to play leftfield for the Mets in 2010, let me make some facts absolutely clear…
He will be 37 years old on Opening Day.
He has batted .243 over the last three seasons.
His strikeout totals: 2009 156 K / 544 AB – 2008 142 K / 444 AB – 2007 160 K / 571 AB
He doesn’t want to play Left Field! ”I feel like I can still play one of the better center fields in the game.”
Cameron has a center fielder’s mentality. Anyone who has ever played the position in high school or college will tell you what I mean by that. In fact, the last time Cameron played a corner outfield position when with the Mets, and he nearly wiped out Carlos Beltran’s and his own career.
In the rush to tear down Jason Bay for his defensive limitations, which are grossly overblown, nobody applies that same criticism toward Cameron’s declining offense in which Bay blows him away head to head.
I think that more and more people would accept advanced metrics if the stats weren’t used so often to strengthen just one side of an argument.
I’m not knocking advanced metrics, but I do find fault with them when they are used to make unfair comparisons.
You want to compare Jason Bay than compare him to other leftfielders like Adam Dunn, Hideki Matsui or last seasons Gary Sheffield. Don’t compare him to a Gold Glove centerfielder and expect me to drop my jaw and exclaim, “Wow, you’re right, Cameron is a thousand times better than Bay in the field.”
And since when do we use one position’s UZR to compare a player at another position? Why don’t we compare Cameron to David Wright while we’re at it, after all didn’t UZR claim he was among the worst third basemen in the league?
Do we really want to ditch Plan A (Jason Bay) for Plan Z (Mike Cameron)?
Come on people… Get your noses out of the books, and keep your eyes on the ball.
The day you actually know what UZR and other advanced metrics are is the day I’ll your criticisms of them will be valid. Know before your criticize.
James, why so testy?
Are you not speculating on the metrics knowledge of others. After all, you may be on top of a lot of arcane insights and parameters, but why not assume some other folks have brains and experience too?
Finally, isn’t Cameron, a guy I liked a lot when he played for us, just a wee bit more fragile than Bay?
I dont think you have to be all into these new fangled stats to figure out that comparing a CF to LF defensively is a bad idea. And offensively there’s no doubt about who is better, and those stats are a fair comparison.
Sorry, but only an idiot would consider Mike Cameron a better player than Jason Bay. Can you imagine any GM making a claim like that? They would be laughed out of the business. The press would have a field day. These new stats may help you win your fantasy leagues, but this is the real deal. Reminds me of Keith Hernandez saying stratomatic players would make terrible GM’s when Cohen asked him if he ever considered a baseball front office job. I guess he plays stratomatic, but his point was well made.
I had to add something else to my post. Can you imagine an expansion draft where the current versions of Bay and Cameron were available and a GM drafted 37 YO Cameron over Bay? Wow, EPIC FAIL. Talk about a doomed franchise.
but we’re not talking about an expansion draft – we’re talking about the difference between a short term contract for a small amount of money for Cameron vs. a long-term contract for a LOT of money for Bay. Yes, Bay was a better player last year than Cameron and Cameron is old, but Bay wasn’t that much better than Cameron that he is worth all the extra money he’s gonna get. And Cameron’s been a more consistent player than Bay, so he’ll most likely still be pretty good next year and even the year after. And, finally, there’s a really good chance that Bay will be a pretty bad player by the end of his contract, when he’s in his late 30′s.
The Mets are in a rebuilding stage. We need the better player(s) that can be instrumental in remaking this team into a ‘contender’. Bay does that for us for a lot more years than Cameron (as much as i ‘like’ Mike). Cameron is 5 years and 9 months OLDER than Bay. And this ain’t no longer the golden days of steroids. Case closed.
But Bay’s not exactly young and he’s getting worse in the field (and will likely start declining with the bat soon). So if you’re rebuilding, Jason Bay makes no sense at all. The best possible option is obviously Matt Holliday, who’s younger and better than either Bay or Cameron.
Obviously you just want a competitive .500 team and care little for the post season in which Bay carried the Red Sox. You call 3 .240 seasons in a row consistent? Yeah consistently bad. With Gallard, Fielder, Braun, Hoffmann on the team Cameron did little to carry the Brewers.
You mis-read my comment. i am clamoring FOR signing Bay NOT Cameron.
As far as Cameron goes, my feeling is been here done that. I don’t want to see him again. We need better than Mike Cameron. Signing him would be nothing more than settling for mediocrity of which we had altogether too much last season. Closed case for me; I don’t want to hear about him again.
‘Amen’, Mask. ‘Amen’. Now, the NYT is saying Mets are going after Bay or Lackey, NOT both. Since, we do not appear capable of ‘alternative’ tactics (like trading somebody ‘real’ for Tim Hudson, or going for Carl Crawford), and the Phillies ‘lead’ for Halladay, i say it’s time to shred the freaking wallet and go pell mell for Bay, Lackey, AND others…OR bow low to the Phillies for the next 5 years.
We have a choice but we need a plan.
The Phillies signing of Halladay will be a total disaster for us. It will be a long haul after that. We will be eating humble pie to not only the Yanks, but to the Phils as well for many years to come.
Yes, puts us in front of a steamroller, no question, should the Phillies get Halladay. We can stay put and get steam-rolled, or we can become aggressive as hell and answer back with F/A signings and some key trades, giving the Phillies ‘something’ to brace for…like a fight.
But do me have confidence in the current administration to do anything like that? We seem to be more at the mercy of what the other GM’s do anything positive that our own mgmt is likely to do from its own initiatives.
good athlete, but a really disappointing baseball player. if you need something good to happen offensively in a game, he always seems to disappoint.
Bay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cameron
Nice level of information here. There is so much data around about this subject that sometimes you cannot see the wood for the trees but you have pitched this at just the right level so that the lay person can understand – thank you!