Comments on: Bill Madden: Mets Only Want Low Budget Latin Players http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:14:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bob L http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-34000 Bob L Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:08:27 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-34000 i wouldn't do that, unless Burrell was for depth in LF and 1B. i wouldn’t do that, unless Burrell was for depth in LF and 1B.

]]> By: Anthony http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33998 Anthony Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:49:59 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33998 According to Joel Sherman in the New York Post, if the Cubs agree to send Bradley to the Rays in exchange Burrell, the Mets would consider swapping Castillo for Burrell, who has one year and $9 million left on his contract. According to Joel Sherman in the New York Post, if the Cubs agree to send Bradley to the Rays in exchange Burrell, the Mets would consider swapping Castillo for Burrell, who has one year and $9 million left on his contract.

]]> By: Joe D http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33997 Joe D Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:37:55 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33997 The Daily News actually removed the word "Latino" and revised the original text. Obviously, the editors had a problem with it is as well. The Daily News actually removed the word “Latino” and revised the original text. Obviously, the editors had a problem with it is as well.

]]> By: Ace http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33991 Ace Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:18:15 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33991 I think your informal statistics for player signings should include the farm system as well I think your informal statistics for player signings should include the farm system as well

]]> By: jdon http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33956 jdon Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:24:21 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33956 I don't think anyone is knocking Latino players. Just bad players. And I think a lot of people feel that Omar has a bias for Latino players and will prefer a Latino player to a non-Latino who might be better. Or to be more precise, he will not look hard for a player if some player he knows is available. Most of the players that are talked about are not big time players. No one in their right mind would criticize adding a Reyes or a Beltran. And saying that about Omar or some of the players he signs is not bias. Bias is when you think someone is better BECAUSE of his race or ethnic background. I hardly think it is a stretch to say that Omar displays a preference for Latino players. And if a person thinks that, then you must also think that Omar is biased. Bill Madden hates the met organization, but I think it is because he feels they are second rate, not that they are biased. I seriously doubt that he would say that if he had not heard it from a source he trusted. If he did, if he was just shooting from the hip, he probably should have his goose cooked. I don’t think anyone is knocking Latino players. Just bad players. And I think a lot of people feel that Omar has a bias for Latino players and will prefer a Latino player to a non-Latino who might be better. Or to be more precise, he will not look hard for a player if some player he knows is available. Most of the players that are talked about are not big time players. No one in their right mind would criticize adding a Reyes or a Beltran. And saying that about Omar or some of the players he signs is not bias. Bias is when you think someone is better BECAUSE of his race or ethnic background. I hardly think it is a stretch to say that Omar displays a preference for Latino players. And if a person thinks that, then you must also think that Omar is biased. Bill Madden hates the met organization, but I think it is because he feels they are second rate, not that they are biased. I seriously doubt that he would say that if he had not heard it from a source he trusted. If he did, if he was just shooting from the hip, he probably should have his goose cooked.

]]> By: jdon http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33955 jdon Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:15:36 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33955 Well, your idea if concrete is some percentage, I think. My idea is Omar bringing in washed up Latin players whenever the opportunity presents itself. Guys like Julio Franco and Tatis, like Livan Hernandez, Felix Herdia and that drunk Jorge Julio. Giving Ollie 36 MILLION when no one else was making him an offer. Bringing in human flotsam like Anderson Hernandez, Wilson Valdez and Argenis Reyes and resigning a Disabled list guy like Alou for 8 million with his injury history at his age. It seems to me that Omar is running a jobs program for some of his old buddies. Does it match up with the league percentages on hispanic players? Who knows. There are some teams in this league who have hardly any. Are they biased? Is there a required percentage you must have? I happen to think Omar is incompetent. I thought he was incompetent when they brought him in here. Does that make me biased? I don't think Omar evaluates, I think he tries to get guys he knows. Well, your idea if concrete is some percentage, I think. My idea is Omar bringing in washed up Latin players whenever the opportunity presents itself. Guys like Julio Franco and Tatis, like Livan Hernandez, Felix Herdia and that drunk Jorge Julio. Giving Ollie 36 MILLION when no one else was making him an offer. Bringing in human flotsam like Anderson Hernandez, Wilson Valdez and Argenis Reyes and resigning a Disabled list guy like Alou for 8 million with his injury history at his age. It seems to me that Omar is running a jobs program for some of his old buddies. Does it match up with the league percentages on hispanic players? Who knows. There are some teams in this league who have hardly any. Are they biased? Is there a required percentage you must have? I happen to think Omar is incompetent. I thought he was incompetent when they brought him in here. Does that make me biased? I don’t think Omar evaluates, I think he tries to get guys he knows.

]]> By: sarge http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33952 sarge Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:38:33 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33952 If the whole Met team was made up of Latin players and the team competed, made the playoffs and won a WS I guarantee that this conversation would be mute. I am a Latin player and Latin players along with blacks had a hard time cracking Major League rosters in the middle of the past century so Madden's comments are offensive and naive. Anyone who agrees with this is just as naive. Omar might have an agenda but he wants to win regardless of the national origin of the player. Those who see this and agree with Madden need to look at the rosters of Major League teams. If the whole Met team was made up of Latin players and the team competed, made the playoffs and won a WS I guarantee that this conversation would be mute. I am a Latin player and Latin players along with blacks had a hard time cracking Major League rosters in the middle of the past century so Madden’s comments are offensive and naive. Anyone who agrees with this is just as naive. Omar might have an agenda but he wants to win regardless of the national origin of the player. Those who see this and agree with Madden need to look at the rosters of Major League teams.

]]> By: Buddy H http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33947 Buddy H Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:25:23 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33947 No he didn't............love the arrogance when people speak for "EVERYONE" No he didn’t…………love the arrogance when people speak for “EVERYONE”

]]> By: tlagee http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33946 tlagee Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:24:46 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33946 I agree that it looks pretty suspect in print - but let's be real here. Whether Omar is trying to fill the roster with low priced Latin players or high priced Latin players he has filled the team with Latin players. They do not market the name "Los Mets" for nothing. BTW, I am not saying whether filling the roster with Latin players is good or not - every player should be evaluated individually - but it does seem somewhat unusual that Omar seems to go after a lot of Latin players. Think about this - the only trade this past year of note was when he traded for a non-latino player - Frenchy (of course, he got rid of a non-latino player to make the trade - Ryan Church.) I agree that it looks pretty suspect in print – but let’s be real here. Whether Omar is trying to fill the roster with low priced Latin players or high priced Latin players he has filled the team with Latin players.

They do not market the name “Los Mets” for nothing.

BTW, I am not saying whether filling the roster with Latin players is good or not – every player should be evaluated individually – but it does seem somewhat unusual that Omar seems to go after a lot of Latin players.

Think about this – the only trade this past year of note was when he traded for a non-latino player – Frenchy (of course, he got rid of a non-latino player to make the trade – Ryan Church.)

]]> By: Devin http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33936 Devin Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:53:09 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33936 This why I detest ingonorant writers like Madden. It's because they are dangerous and they perpetuate a bias that isn't really there. We haven't heard this Latino BS for almost a year, but now thanks to Madden those old backward thinking sentiments have reared their ugly heads again. I'm glad to see that for the most part most of the commenters on this thread understand how negligent Madden is, and that Omar is guilty of many things, but racisim isn't one of them. This why I detest ingonorant writers like Madden. It’s because they are dangerous and they perpetuate a bias that isn’t really there. We haven’t heard this Latino BS for almost a year, but now thanks to Madden those old backward thinking sentiments have reared their ugly heads again. I’m glad to see that for the most part most of the commenters on this thread understand how negligent Madden is, and that Omar is guilty of many things, but racisim isn’t one of them.

]]> By: GravediggerHebner http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33935 GravediggerHebner Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:49:27 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33935 Tom T those are reasonable, fair points, although somewhat subjective. If we analyze Omar in a vacuum what do we have to compare him to? As I said to jdon below, I am not here to say that the suggestion that Omar favors Lation players is not true, I would just like a wider field of view, some specific comparisons and contrasts, before I adopt it as my point of view. Until then it's just hearsay and opinion, which is rarely unbiased. Tom T those are reasonable, fair points, although somewhat subjective. If we analyze Omar in a vacuum what do we have to compare him to? As I said to jdon below, I am not here to say that the suggestion that Omar favors Lation players is not true, I would just like a wider field of view, some specific comparisons and contrasts, before I adopt it as my point of view. Until then it’s just hearsay and opinion, which is rarely unbiased.

]]> By: GravediggerHebner http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33931 GravediggerHebner Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:45:54 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33931 jdon, all I'm asking anyone to do is to provide some factual evidence of this phenomenon, not just "eyes and some measure of understanding" because "eyes" are biased and I ask you, "some measure of understanding" of what? Show me some concrete facts to support the assertion and I'll believe it. I am not suggesting it's not true, I just want more proof of it than "it seems that way" or "I mean come on just look" which are not things you said but are responses I've seen elsewhere on this topic. Until that happens, it just shows an inability or an unwillingness to investigate facts that may dispute a belief. Simply dismissing a different opinion as political correctness is taking the easy way out. jdon, all I’m asking anyone to do is to provide some factual evidence of this phenomenon, not just “eyes and some measure of understanding” because “eyes” are biased and I ask you, “some measure of understanding” of what? Show me some concrete facts to support the assertion and I’ll believe it. I am not suggesting it’s not true, I just want more proof of it than “it seems that way” or “I mean come on just look” which are not things you said but are responses I’ve seen elsewhere on this topic. Until that happens, it just shows an inability or an unwillingness to investigate facts that may dispute a belief. Simply dismissing a different opinion as political correctness is taking the easy way out.

]]> By: jdon http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33916 jdon Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:15:47 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33916 I have no desire to be politically correct. If you have eyes and some measure of understanding you know that Omar has a bias toward Latin players. However, no one can accuse him of that, no matter how obvious it becomes, and anyone who does accuse is automatically tarred with the bias brush. Omar gets a free ride. There is no getting around it. The politically correct are among us. The obvious can no longer be obvious. I have no desire to be politically correct. If you have eyes and some measure of understanding you know that Omar has a bias toward Latin players. However, no one can accuse him of that, no matter how obvious it becomes, and anyone who does accuse is automatically tarred with the bias brush. Omar gets a free ride. There is no getting around it. The politically correct are among us. The obvious can no longer be obvious.

]]> By: theonlymaskman http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33910 theonlymaskman Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:34:21 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33910 It will be very sad if we come away with Guillen as our big solution to LF. It will be very sad if we come away with Guillen as our big solution to LF.

]]> By: jdon http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33906 jdon Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:23:19 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33906 simple enough to prove. If Omar winds up with a stiff like Guillen or some other Latin player who comes cheap, then it will be the truth, and while the truth can seem like poor taste at times, it is the business of a newspaper writer. simple enough to prove. If Omar winds up with a stiff like Guillen or some other Latin player who comes cheap, then it will be the truth, and while the truth can seem like poor taste at times, it is the business of a newspaper writer.

]]> By: Tom Terrific http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33901 Tom Terrific Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:09:04 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33901 I understand your point, Hebner, but I think you left some guys off the list--Cora and that very old man who used to play for the Braves that he overpaid? And it's not so much as the number of players but also the money he paid out to them and the years on the contract. There isn't one guy on your non-Latin list that got too much money or too many years on their contract the way some of the Latin guys did. I understand your point, Hebner, but I think you left some guys off the list–Cora and that very old man who used to play for the Braves that he overpaid? And it’s not so much as the number of players but also the money he paid out to them and the years on the contract. There isn’t one guy on your non-Latin list that got too much money or too many years on their contract the way some of the Latin guys did.

]]> By: GravediggerHebner http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33899 GravediggerHebner Sun, 06 Dec 2009 17:59:08 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33899 I think when anyone suggests that the Mets under Omar Minaya go out of their way to sign Latin American players is exposing their own bias, however benign or subtle it may be. Before we discuss Latin players to the Mets, we should at the very least investigate the percentages of various demographic groups in the sport overall. I have no access to this information but it should be gathered and used to either support or refute these kinds of race related statements. I only have quick access to Met acquisitions data through the beginning of the 2008 season, not since, but let's take a look at what I have immediate access to. Since Omar took over in 2004 through 2008 he has brought the following Latin players aboard: Felix Heredia, Anderson Hernandez, Fernando Lunar, Benji Gil, Carlos Delgado, Duaner Sanchez, Jorge Julio, Orlando Hernandez, Eli Marrero, Ruben Gotay, Roberto Hernandez, Oliver Perez, Guillermo Mota, Ambiorix Burgos, Luis Castillo, Luis Matos, Angel Pagan, and Johan Santana through trade and Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran and Moises Alou via free agency. 20 players. He's also brought aboard Doug Mientkiewicz, Kaz Ishii, Steve Colyer, Xavier Nady, Tike Redman, Paul LoDuca, Steve Schmoll, John Maine, Dave Williams, Mike Adams, Shawn Green, Mike Nickeas, Jon Adkins, Ben Johnson, Adam Bostick, Jason Vargas, Chad Hermanson, Jeff Conine, Johnny Estrada, Brian Stokes, Ryan Church, Brian Schneider, and Trot Nixon through trades, and Billy Wagner, Tom Glavine and Scott Schoeneweis via free agency. 26 players. Through the start of 2008 thats 20 of 46 players from Latin America, 26 from "other." 43%. I would like to see a similar breakdown for other teams over the same time period, and I would also like to see an overall breakdown of the entire major leagues in a similar fashion before accusing any one GM of stockpiling players of a certain race. I think when anyone suggests that the Mets under Omar Minaya go out of their way to sign Latin American players is exposing their own bias, however benign or subtle it may be.

Before we discuss Latin players to the Mets, we should at the very least investigate the percentages of various demographic groups in the sport overall. I have no access to this information but it should be gathered and used to either support or refute these kinds of race related statements.

I only have quick access to Met acquisitions data through the beginning of the 2008 season, not since, but let’s take a look at what I have immediate access to.

Since Omar took over in 2004 through 2008 he has brought the following Latin players aboard:

Felix Heredia, Anderson Hernandez, Fernando Lunar, Benji Gil, Carlos Delgado, Duaner Sanchez, Jorge Julio, Orlando Hernandez, Eli Marrero, Ruben Gotay, Roberto Hernandez, Oliver Perez, Guillermo Mota, Ambiorix Burgos, Luis Castillo, Luis Matos, Angel Pagan, and Johan Santana through trade and Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran and Moises Alou via free agency. 20 players.

He’s also brought aboard Doug Mientkiewicz, Kaz Ishii, Steve Colyer, Xavier Nady, Tike Redman, Paul LoDuca, Steve Schmoll, John Maine, Dave Williams, Mike Adams, Shawn Green, Mike Nickeas, Jon Adkins, Ben Johnson, Adam Bostick, Jason Vargas, Chad Hermanson, Jeff Conine, Johnny Estrada, Brian Stokes, Ryan Church, Brian Schneider, and Trot Nixon through trades, and Billy Wagner, Tom Glavine and Scott Schoeneweis via free agency. 26 players.

Through the start of 2008 thats 20 of 46 players from Latin America, 26 from “other.” 43%. I would like to see a similar breakdown for other teams over the same time period, and I would also like to see an overall breakdown of the entire major leagues in a similar fashion before accusing any one GM of stockpiling players of a certain race.

]]> By: Bob L http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33891 Bob L Sun, 06 Dec 2009 17:27:52 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33891 i've long wondered same thing. i’ve long wondered same thing.

]]> By: Tom Terrific http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33889 Tom Terrific Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:34:51 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33889 First of all, Madden is a hack. Having said that, while he made his point rather indelicately, Met fans cannot deny that Omar has shown a strong partiality to signing and trading for Latin players. I mean seriously, if Alex Cora was a white guy, would he be getting $2 million to be a soft-hitting, low-range backup shortstop. You don't do that so a backup can be a clubhouse leader. First of all, Madden is a hack. Having said that, while he made his point rather indelicately, Met fans cannot deny that Omar has shown a strong partiality to signing and trading for Latin players. I mean seriously, if Alex Cora was a white guy, would he be getting $2 million to be a soft-hitting, low-range backup shortstop. You don’t do that so a backup can be a clubhouse leader.

]]> By: Anthony http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/12/bill-madden-mets-only-want-low-budget-latin-players.html#comment-33886 Anthony Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:17:56 +0000 http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=16917#comment-33886 exactly....are you people really upset/surprised? He just said what everyone else is thinking. exactly….are you people really upset/surprised? He just said what everyone else is thinking.

]]>