Comments on: June 15, 1977: A Date Which Will Live In (Mets) Infamy

By: Doug Branch

Doug Branch — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:55:20 +0000

In the June issue of Mets Inside Pitch I wrote an article about the Seaver trade from the perspective of the four men who were acquired by the Mets:

Steve Henderson, of course is the Ray’s batting coach and says today he still calls Tom Terrific, “Mr. Seaver,” because he helped him get to the big leagues and remembers being cheered roundly during his first at-bat at Shea. Moreover, who remembers his two-out three run home at Shea in 1980 against the Giants’ Allen Ripley, believe it or not?

I watched it sail by me in the right-field boxes, and landed over Jack Clark’s head into the Mets bullpen. Shea was swaying on her foundation(The Mets scored five runs with two outs to win that game).

All four agreed they were treated royally by Mets fans eventhough they were traded for an icon. Doug Flynn is a banker in Kentucky, Pat Zachry a teacher in Texas, and Dan Norman, who asked Joe Torre to trade him-and he did to the Expos, works at Barstow Community College in Barstow, California.

FYI, everyone.

By: Fred Yudin

Fred Yudin — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:31:08 +0000

You really can’t look at this as if it were a trade and compare it to Nolan Ryan and Amos Otis type trades. They were getting rid of Seaver and they didn’t care who they got.

By: L.J. Phipps

L.J. Phipps — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:25:32 +0000

I agree with the Ryan for Fregosi was the worst trade up until Seaver. While the logic was to get a person to man third in Fregosi, and having no idea on what Ryan would turn out to be, I can see what the Mets were thinking at the time. Still a real bad trade! Seaver, with all that he had given the franchise, you just don’t do that to your best player, trade him away for basically nadda. I liked both Henderson and Flynn, but their value was nowhere near what Seaver brought to the organization. Imagine if the Mets had kept Ryan, and had Seaver, Matlack, Koosman, & a healthy Gentry or Stone. I say they beat the A’s in 73 and maybe win won or two more World Series. Ahhhhh baseball You Gotta love it!

By: alan

alan — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:47:06 +0000

The article surely reminds Met fans of that terrible day in our history but it does not depict the relationship of M Donald Grant and Dick Young. Baseball teams had beat writers in those days who were “on the payroll” to help management maintain a certain image. Free agency changed the playing field for salaries and by 1977 there was no doubt that Seaver was and had been the premier pitcher in the game for 10 years. He was upset that the Mets would not even consider him to be worth what some of these one year wonders were getting once they hit free agency. Between this and the teams reluctancy to improve the team via free agent acquisitions, Seaver’s fans fumed at the organization. Mrs. Paysons daughter got involved and helped calm the brewing storm by promising to make sure that Tom’s salary would escalate to what his true value was worth. Grant’s power was being over ruled and so he played his next card using his puppet Dick Young to begin fighting Seaver’s popularity with a series of articles that ripped him for greediness and then attacked his family too. Seaver loved N.Y. and the fans but if ever a player was run out of town, this was it. The Midnight Massacre of 1977 to Mets fans was equivilent to what Yankee fans would have felt if their term had banished Mickey Mantle to Kansas City…As a Met fan I have experienced the lows of the 1973 Series loss to Oakland and the Series loss to the Yankees. The playoff losses to the Dodgers and Cardianls too, but the shock and disappointment of Tom Seaver’s exile to Cincinnatti was the toughest hurt of all.

By: Tie Dyed

Tie Dyed — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:24:52 +0000

Honestly, LJ, I’m not sure if it was the worst. I think Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi would be up there…but that one took a while to really see how bad it was.

You are correct. For Seaver, we got Doug Flynn, Pat Zachary, Steve Henderson and Dan Norman. The only decent ballplayer was Henderson–good bat, good glove, decent speed. But he had no protection in the lineup.

The thing I remember most about Zachary was after he gave up a hit to someone (I think Pete Rose during his hitting streak in 78), got upset, kicked the water cooler and broke his toe and missed about 3 months. Typical…

Doug Flynn had a decent glove but was a worse hitter than Buddy Harrelson. I will say Flynn was a nice guy. At the time, I had actually met him. He lived near me and saw him having breakfast in a restaurant.

By: Tie Dyed

Tie Dyed — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:19:43 +0000

‘Old Ideas, huh?’ I love it.

What’s really interesting about Dick Young is the fact that he ridiculed and criticized Seaver for leaving the Mets after wanting to renegegotiate his contract. And yet, in about 83 or so, Young left the Daily News for The Post cause the Daily News failed to renegotiate HIS contract.
Double standard????

By: Tie Dyed

Tie Dyed — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:14:14 +0000

Very true, Russell.
It seemed like after we dumped Seaver, the team lost it’s identity

By: L.J. Phipps

L.J. Phipps — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:54:15 +0000

Yes it was the worst trade in Mets histry. Not only giving away the “franchise”, but getting nothing worth Seaver’s jock in return. Pat Zachry probably could have been a little more than serviceable if he could have played on better Met teams. I liked Doug Flynn, but even his defense wasn’t that good looking at WARP’s. Steve Henderson is another player had the Mets had a supporting cast and knew where to hit him, he may have had some better numbers. Was it Dan Norman the 4th player in the deal? All I know is the Mets were done after Seaver was traded, and it is a blemish on the franchise to this day!

By: Joe D

Joe D — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:07:48 +0000

Great post Rob! After a weekend full of flubs, trading Seaver was one of the greatest flubs ever.

By: Joe D

Joe D — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:05:14 +0000

Hey tomterif, that’s awesome! I love that “Old Ideas” twist you did. I don’t remember much about Dick Young, but I’ve read a lot about him every now and then that usually puts him in a bad light. My least favorite columnist is Wallace Mathews of Newsday. I literally take a deep breath before I read any of his Mets columns.

By: tomterif

tomterif — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:40:13 +0000

Between 1983 and 1985, I published a magazine called “New York Sports.” And I was able to put my hero on my first cover in April because he came back to the team that year. I also had a regular short feature in the front of the magazine, which I called “Old Ideas” (a dig on Young columns “Young Ideas” in which the magazine called him out any time he said something stupid, which in those years was often.

By: Uncle Mike

Uncle Mike — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:26:43 +0000

As someone (barely) old enough to remember 1977, and having lived my whole life within shouting distance of New York (this has been tested many times), I know what a milepost it was in the history of City baseball. And while Steve Henderson was a good player for a little while, Pat Zachry was a decent pitcher and Doug Flynn was a good-fielding second baseman, the Reds could have thrown in their next four best prospects (including Ray Knight?) and it wouldn’t have made a difference for the Mets.

Seaver has been class 99 times out of 100. The same cannot be said for Dick Young — aptly first-named if not last-named by that point — and M. Donald Grant. Remember the name for sparsely-populated Shea at that time? Grant’s Tomb.

Three days after the Midnight Massacre, Reggie and Billy almost went at it in the Fenway dugout. Quite a week for New York baseball. The difference is, the Yanks had the talent to pull it together and win a title. The Mets had gotten rid of most of theirs, and for what? So Grant could save a few of Mrs. deRoulet’s bucks?

I’ll say this for Fred Wilpon (and George Steinbrenner): He respects the game enough to try to bring in the kind of players who can win. If they fail, then fans have to live with it, and management has to try someone else — as Vince Lombardi put it, “We may not win, but at least we won’t lose with the same people.” By contrast, look at all the sports-team owners that don’t spend enough to try. And I don’t want to hear “It’s a small market, they can’t afford it.” Baloney: They could afford to buy the team, they can afford to buy a title. David Glass married into the Walton family of Wal-Mart, so I don’t want to hear he can’t afford to build the Royals back into their 1976-85 powerhouse. He chooses not to.

Kudos to both the House of Wilpon and the House of Steinbrenner for wanting to win and acting like it. I know Grant lived long enough to see the Mets matter again, and win it all, without him having anything to do with it. He deserved that.

By: D.C.

D.C. — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:45:09 +0000

From 1977 to 1983, the Mets were down in the dumps so to speak. The turnaround started back in 1980 when Sterling Doubleday and Fred Wilpon brought the Mets and hired Frank Cashen as general manager to bring back the respectability that the Mets did back in the late 60s to the mid 70s. Cashen drafted Darryl Strawberry and Doc Gooden back in the early 80s. Also the trades of Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter in 1983 and 1984 made the Mets a contender for the N.L. East crown and 1986 was the pinnacle when they won the World Series. Tom Seaver was back with the Mets in 1983 but went to the White Sox after the season. History will always repeat itself for the Mets built them to win a championship and dismantled them and build it back up again. Right now, the Mets need to turn this thing around this year or else it will suffer through another rebuilding process that no Mets fan doesn’t want to go back to the dark ages.

By: Fred Yudin

Fred Yudin — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:06:32 +0000

To tomterif, how true. It is like ‘deja vu’ all over again with Johan Santana; the bench seems satisfied to sit back and watch him pitch just like they did with Seaver.

By: tomterif

tomterif — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:59:38 +0000

By the way, if the Mets had any offense during the time Seaver pitched for us, he would have had about 30 more wins and a couple of more Cy Youngs…and they all would have been without the benefit of roids.

By: tomterif

tomterif — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:54:35 +0000

That day is still, without a doubt, one of the saddest days in my life. Tom Seaver was, and still is, my sports hero and when the Mets let him go that day it was like my heart was ripped out. He is still the greatest pitcher I’ve ever seen on a mound.

By: Fred Yudin

Fred Yudin — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:52:30 +0000

Tom was terrific and a class act, something New York in general could not afford to loose those years. Tom was a hero (maybe one of the last few in sports), now our sports figures are anti-heros.

By: Kay

Kay — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:28:43 +0000

I cried………..literally

By: theonlymaskman

theonlymaskman — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:15:54 +0000

Yes, great article. If only the players of today would emulate Tom Terrific. Strike One! and you take it from there. He was the epitome of a competitor and everything he did was structured around Winning. I am blessed to have seen him pitch at Shea especially during the ’69 World Series.

By: Russell Zanca

Russell Zanca — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:08:53 +0000

Yeah, but dude we got Pat Zachary and Willie–the Hot Dog–Montanez.

Dick Young was always a total NY Baseball reporting A**Hole. Read the Boys of Summer.

And no, a moment of tear-filled silence. I do remember that summer. It was as if the Mets were no longer the Mets.